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Ronson Racing Products
13th October 2010, 15:16
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/group-buys-356/855153-cosworth-parts-10-off.html

Paul@Zen
14th October 2010, 22:07
Are you VAT registered?

Banny
15th October 2010, 10:37
-

Lateral Performance Ltd
16th October 2010, 00:31
Company, & web site registered 13/9/2010).

He doesn't have an agreement with Cosworth yet, and rumour has it, he won't be getting one either.

I then discovered that he has copied pictures, and text from my web site !!!

stockcar
16th October 2010, 07:47
oops........

daz-davies
16th October 2010, 09:56
Welcome to the business world.

scoobyschef
16th October 2010, 16:03
Hope this isnt a new Scott Lawson.

daz-davies
16th October 2010, 16:24
So let me get this right. Young lad sets up a business and starts to advertise himself. Before you know it his competitors try to cripple him before he has a chance to get established.

Dirty tricks campaign if ever i've seen one.

f4lak
16th October 2010, 20:41
Aye, thats bad crack if thats whats happenin, On the other hand if its a scam, everyone will be pleased that they were informed and not screwed for their hard earned..

John Stevenson
16th October 2010, 21:01
Either way, advertising your Gucci Suede Dash being made on your single bed in your Mums house can't really help ! tongue.gif

daz-davies
16th October 2010, 22:09
It's a Young lad who's been posting on Scoobynet for a year or two. His handywork is very good judging by his project thread.

He's just having a shot at starting a business and I just think it stinks that his competitors feel the need to ruin the guys business before it has a chance to get established.

In fact I think it f*cking disgraceful TBH.

John, part supplier loyalties aside everyone has to start somewhere.

John Stevenson
16th October 2010, 22:30
Daz, pull your Fecking head in!! I just mean, he does himself no favours by putting up blatently amature pics to promoting a business.

Judge me like that again and I'll see you in the car park ;)

Ever heard of a Glasgow Kiss ? tongue.gif ;)

daz-davies
16th October 2010, 23:06
Yeah I dished a few out whilst on attachment with the Commachio lot in Arbroath, HMS Condor if i remember correctly ;)

Ref car park, dont confuse your ambitions with your capabilities tongue.gif

daz-davies
16th October 2010, 23:06
..

Duncan Graham
17th October 2010, 06:28
Originally posted by daz-davies:
Welcome to the business world. Indeed Daz.

It is harsh world and maybe this is a good lesson for him. It will make him stronger. I wish him all the best.

As long as he pleases his customers then that is all that matters really and over time his competitors will have to respect him for that (even if they don't like competition)

Putting an advert on 22B was probably not the right place to start IMO - the one almost advert free zone in t'internet.

Paul@Zen
17th October 2010, 08:24
There is nothing wrong with his amateurish bits and pieces, I dare say he is 1000% more honest than another certain mail order specialist that was run from his parents house and has been ripping people off for a few years under a range of names.

All the other dealers have worked hard to both get the dealership, and then to work up to a point where the discount is sensible. All of a sudden someone with no postal address, no telephone number and not VAT registration offers to under cut all the other Cosworth dealers for pocket money. If I was still a Cosworth dealer I would be fuming, so it's kinda ironic that one such dealer has now just gone on and advertised 10% off to everyone anyway. :rolleyes:

Just to add, if they were VAT registered, it would mean as a trader that 15% was a sensible trade discount for someone looking for the odd bit or bob. Without the VAT reg, it means that even with a 15% discount, they are about the same as retail when selling to someone who is VAT registered. Hence the question.

[ 17. October 2010, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Pavlo ]

dunx
17th October 2010, 09:12
But special offers get the products noticed, I'm having some heads sorted ATM, and the choice of cams could be influenced by such an offer.

Sadly, I wouldn't trust my cash to a "Newbie", when people like Zen, RCMS, Lateral & EngineTuner have been proven as reliable.

dunx

P.S. I don't "do" Ebuy...

Martynj
17th October 2010, 19:29
Would personally never trust any business that doesn't have a landline number and disclosed address.

P.S. Thanks for the heads up m8, you know who you are.

John Stevenson
17th October 2010, 22:24
Originally posted by daz-davies:
Ref car park, dont confuse your ambitions with your capabilities tongue.gif Aye 45 Commando at Condor

Feck me the Catering Core get all the best Postings ! LOL

Just so you you know I can do the 5 point Exploding Heart Technique tongue.gif Be Afraid LOL

2-pump-tone
17th October 2010, 23:29
have you never met John daz? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fF9IUdbxk

Ren
18th October 2010, 09:37
Now, I like Daz, but I also like John...there's only one way to decide it!

Paul@Zen
18th October 2010, 09:47
Celebrity death match?

Banny
18th October 2010, 09:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycp2VrKfm-A

:D

John Stevenson
18th October 2010, 10:11
LOL tongue.gif

John Stevenson
18th October 2010, 10:20
I reckon a Beer Drinking Match at T'Indian would be way more fun ;)

daz-davies
18th October 2010, 10:29
Just so you you know I can do the 5 point Exploding Heart Technique tongue.gif Be Afraid LOLNow I know you're full of it.

Everyone knows its five point palm exploding heart technique.

Not only are you trying to out keyboard warrior me but you're trying to out geek me too?

Proof indeed you're well past it old man LOL

MAD Hammer
18th October 2010, 10:29
Yep loads of beer followed by drunken arm wrestle works for me smile.gif

John Stevenson
18th October 2010, 10:31
LOL tongue.gif

JP
18th October 2010, 10:39
Originally posted by Pavlo:
Are you VAT registered? Technically speaking you do not need to be VAT registered unless you exceed the HM Custom and Revenue's threshold of currently 70k.

Not being Registered means he does not charge VAT onto his customers, but at the same time cannot reclaim any vat on expenses he has incurred.

From a business perspective, VAT should be a washthrough if its registered for VAT. Its the customer who are unable to reclaim get the hit. Being VAT registered or not sould not be used to make a decision as to if a business (start up in this case) is doing anything wrong or right. smile.gif

Ren
18th October 2010, 10:48
I was thinking more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6gyUb0E7o

JP
18th October 2010, 10:55
Originally posted by Ren:
I was thinking more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6gyUb0E7o lol!

Paul@Zen
18th October 2010, 11:05
No you don't need to be VAT registered, but if you're advertising prices as plus VAT or inc VAT then you really should be registered. I have come across a few traders in my time giving prices as plus VAT, adding on the 17.5% but then just pocketing it, which is not the same as giving a "price you see is the price you pay" line, because of course the trader will pay VAT on his purchases, and will need to get that back either from the customer or the revenue.



Originally posted by JP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pavlo:
Are you VAT registered? Technically speaking you do not need to be VAT registered unless you exceed the HM Custom and Revenue's threshold of currently 70k.

Not being Registered means he does not charge VAT onto his customers, but at the same time cannot reclaim any vat on expenses he has incurred.

From a business perspective, VAT should be a washthrough if its registered for VAT. Its the customer who are unable to reclaim get the hit. Being VAT registered or not sould not be used to make a decision as to if a business (start up in this case) is doing anything wrong or right. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]

JP
18th October 2010, 11:23
Originally posted by Pavlo:
[QB] No you don't need to be VAT registered, but if you're advertising prices as plus VAT or inc VAT then you really should be registered. I have come across a few traders in my time giving prices as plus VAT, adding on the 17.5% but then just pocketing it, which is not the same as giving a "price you see is the price you pay" line, because of course the trader will pay VAT on his purchases, and will need to get that back either from the customer or the revenue.

It is illegal to charge VAT if you are not VAT registered and have not been issued with a VAT Registration number. Charging VAT is simply collecting output taxes on behalf of her majesty's customs and revenue. Only a fool would attempt to collect this when they are not entitled to.

Re invoices and paying a bill which includes VAT, the onus is on the customer who is purchasing the goods from a Supplier, who has charged VAT to demand and who are entitled to a VAT invoice. This should clearly show the company's VAT Registration no.

KenC
18th October 2010, 18:53
So is it cheaper to buy from a dealer who is under the 70k threshold and does not charge vat??? how can that be?
If that is the case, wouldnt it be in consumers interest to seek out traders that dont charge it??

shawy1976
18th October 2010, 19:26
No because the person u buy it off still has to pay vat and pass it on to u the customer, Also if the buyer is vat registered it works out worse for him as it cant be claimed back .
You can be vat registered if u turn over 10k a year so if u deal in parts its a no brainer being vat registered.

Slooby
18th October 2010, 19:34
A fundamental point made by Mark here:


Originally posted by Lateral Performance Ltd:
I then discovered that he has copied pictures, and text from my web site !!! That's just down right wrong and instantly puts my back up.

If it is the case then a mail to the ISP hosting the website stating that the company is using copyrighted material that they do not have the rights to for their gain (simply put they are in breach of copyright!), should see the site pulled until said company can correct this, unless either the ISP or the company want's to face some legal action of course!

daz-davies
18th October 2010, 20:00
A tad over the top don't you think? Am I the only one on here not jumping on the band wagon in giving this chap a hard time?

How about just sending the fella a polite email expressing your concerns I'm sure he's a reasonable chap. No need for over the top aggression and ultimatums.

As for moaning about copying things from other companies I'm not going to mention specifics but we all know its been done gthe other way round, or this that different when the boot is on the other foot? You can't have it both ways!!

Not wishing to stir up a hornets nest or piss anyone off here but I am trying to play devils advocate and be the voice of reason. Double standards aren't fair are they?

Duncan Graham
18th October 2010, 20:13
Originally posted by Slooby:
A fundamental point made by Mark here:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lateral Performance Ltd:
I then discovered that he has copied pictures, and text from my web site !!! That's just down right wrong and instantly puts my back up.

If it is the case then a mail to the ISP hosting the website stating that the company is using copyrighted material that they do not have the rights to for their gain (simply put they are in breach of copyright!), should see the site pulled until said company can correct this, unless either the ISP or the company want's to face some legal action of course! </font>[/QUOTE]That wouldnt work and shouldnt be done IMHO.

Half the content of people sites is copied from other peoples - it ends up being impossible to remember who wrote what and meaningless making threats as they hold no water.

shawy1976
18th October 2010, 20:17
I,m not having a go daz just trying to explain the vat to ken, I personally think the more compitition the cheaper for us buyers , so i,m all 4 mr ronson..

Slooby
18th October 2010, 20:21
Daz, I'm just pointing out the errors in his site, and the actions that can happen.

You are quite correct, Mark should e-mail politely asking him to take down his (Mark's) copyrighted material. If this doesn't happen then Mark is perfectly entitled to take the next step and write to the ISP. It will be a hard lesson form this lad to learn, but in reality there is no excuse for blatantly taking other peoples material and passing it off as your own work, especially when those people have invested a considerable amount of time and money setting up their own business.

[rant mode on] Just one further point: I for one so not like people coming onto this board blatantly using it for advertising* when they have never contributed one iota to making 22b what it is ie by joining in the community, seeking help and helping others (and not for financial gain!). Just coming in and posting a link to Scabbynet p!sses me off like you wouldn't believe, it's lazy and shows no respect to this forum. If it were down to me the first post would have been vaped, and replaced with an explanation as to why...grrrrrrrrrrrr[/rant mode off]

*which technically they should be paying for...but that's a whole other argument for us mods and Anders to resolve separately...one day...honest...well maybe tomorrow...as has been said from, oh, around 1999 ;)

Andy.F
18th October 2010, 20:25
Originally posted by shawy1976:
No because the person u buy it off still has to pay vat and pass it on to u the customer, Also if the buyer is vat registered it works out worse for him as it cant be claimed back .
You can be vat registered if u turn over 10k a year so if u deal in parts its a no brainer being vat registered. Not really. (For ease of calculation, vat at 20%)

Seller A is vat registered then he buys product at 100+vat =120.00 marks up 10% and sells for 110+vat =132.00 Profit = 10 (vat portion comes and goes to HMRC)

Seller B is non-vat reg buys same product, costs him 120.00 sells for 131.00 undercutting seller A by 1.00 and netting higher profit of 11.00

To a non vat reg buyer, the non vat reg dealer is a better buy.

Trust me, I know, I need to compete against the non vat reg mappers out there !

Slooby
18th October 2010, 20:32
Originally posted by Duncan Graham:
That wouldnt work and shouldnt be done IMHO.Why Duncan, I fail to understand? Not having a pop, it was my understanding after falling foul of this myself as a private individual trying to set up a genuine group buy many many years ago.

Personally I'd loose it completely if I saw all of my hard work being blatantly used by someone else to make money, and at my expense. Just think of all the pain you went through getting Mark to actually make his mind up, write something down and take some pictures...surely that should get the bile rising tongue.gif

Mind you; "Copying one person's work is plagiarism, copying the work of several people is research" ;)

daz-davies
18th October 2010, 20:38
That's all well and good Tim but other companies/individuals have come on here and done it without any fuss. However because this chap is in more direct competition then a big deal is made of it.

I totally agree with your stance on using copyrighted material and he's foolish and naive for doing so. That said I still stand by the double standards in play here with regards to using other peoples work and passing it off as your own.

The pay to advertise issue isnt really an issue until there are rules/procedures in place (which obviously there arent here) and its unfair to slate the guy for taking advantage of that.

If it was me that was trying to start a buisness I'd be livid, so far it's been implied that he's a con merchant, a complete rank amatuer that should be avoided at all costs and he's guilty of tax avoidance among a few other things too.

I think for people to come to those conclusions and spout them on here without any real foundation should re think their actions as its incredibly unfair.

Liz
18th October 2010, 20:48
I think this whole thread beyond the OP's first post is unnecessary. I would have preferred to see him introduce himself before trying to sell us shizzle but that is all. (I see this on other forums too and I think it is naff.)

But Daz, I don't think anyone has implied that the OP is a con merchant or that he is guilty of tax evasion. So, you are not helping smile.gif And frankly, neither is anyone else.

Here endeth the mum speech :D

KenC
18th October 2010, 21:03
Well i thought his contact and payment details looked to be satisfactory
Details (http://bbs.scoobynet.com/traders-contact-area-426/855160-ronson-racing-products-ltd-new-post.html)

Discount is a nice attraction.

Sorry mum :D

[ 18. October 2010, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: KENC ]

daz-davies
18th October 2010, 21:11
Considers himself told :D

shawy1976
18th October 2010, 21:31
Yep didnt think of it that way andy..

I'm sure you charged me vat last time u mapped my car tongue.gif :D

Andy.F
18th October 2010, 21:44
That might be because I'm VAT registered and have been for many years ! All successful mappers are, are they not smile.gif

shawy1976
18th October 2010, 21:50
Sorry read your reply wrong smile.gif

JP
18th October 2010, 22:21
Originally posted by shawy1976:
No because the person u buy it off still has to pay vat and pass it on to u the customer, Also if the buyer is vat registered it works out worse for him as it cant be claimed back .
You can be vat registered if u turn over 10k a year so if u deal in parts its a no brainer being vat registered. Unless the rules have changed not sure where 10k has come from. You can choose to voluntary register for VAT as no minimum threshold. One must bear in mind that VAT is recoverable on "business" incurred expenses i.e. wholly exclusively and necessarily in the course of business is the term I recall! smile.gif

shawy1976
18th October 2010, 22:37
I,m vat registered and i dont turn over 70k. NOTBA. You can choose to be vat registered whatever u earn .

JP
19th October 2010, 08:43
Hence my post re clarity on 70k threshold Neil.

Not being VAT registered allows a business the opportunity to make more cash deals and possibly avoid declaring it as income etc....Both Paul's and Andy's thought process are spot on. Though if any "extra profit" made is declared as bona fide income, then these will get caught in a higher corporation tax charged each year... unless one choose's to hide these! smile.gif

KenC
21st October 2010, 21:55
Has anyone seen the latest development on this group buy??

Group buy (http://bbs.scoobynet.com/group-buys-356/855153-cosworth-parts-10-off.html)

Is this guy few tins short of a 6 pack???

stockcar
30th October 2010, 07:34
very strange way of setting about things.......

daz-davies
30th October 2010, 16:12
He's ****ed up now that's for sure , but only because he's tried to do the right thing as his more established competitors have whinged because they cant cope with a bit of healthy competition.

johnfelstead
30th October 2010, 16:27
Very silly guy, before doing anything public he should have the terms of his dealership in writing. Once that is sorted then he can start making comercial decisions, which may or may not incoporate some upset competition. Part of the analysis of how he runs his business should include what good will or lack of, with fellow suppliers, is worth long term to him and his customer base. It's a small world out there.

KenC
31st October 2010, 15:44
Originally posted by daz-davies:
He's ****ed up now that's for sure , but only because he's tried to do the right thing as his more established competitors have whinged because they cant cope with a bit of healthy competition. I was agreeing with you earlier on Daz, but not now mate, i dont think its down to him trying to do the right thing because competitors whinged, at end of day they are competitors and what did this guy think their reaction was going to be when he offerd the discount???
they werent going to be exactly happy, so if he didnt care what they felt in first place, why has he now grown a consience on it.
Simple explantation imo is that he isnt a Cosworth dealer, he was offering the Cossie oil cap and afaik that isnt available in Europe, only from the States.
Enginetuner has offered 10% discount aswell,and he hasnt pulled his offer.

I cant really beleive this guy has done what he has done, not exactly confidence building for new customers,
saying he was take a loss on everything, what would have happend if a few full Cossie engine buyers had of came along, would he of been able to take a couple of grand loss???
If he is a legitimate business, is he not legally bound to honour his advertised prices??

Ren
31st October 2010, 21:44
Originally posted by daz-davies:
more established competitors have whinged because they cant cope with a bit of healthy competition. More established competitors have to "earn" the discount from the suppliers through repeat business. This is the same everywhere, not just in the automotive sector. They will put in their own time using, selling & supporting the product.

Would you buy engine components from someone who hadn't used them?

Andy.F
31st October 2010, 22:15
Originally posted by Ren:

Would you buy engine components from someone who hadn't used them? Yes, I'm usually the test dummy lol

daz-davies
31st October 2010, 23:24
I know I keep harping on and this will be the last I say on the matter. All this poor bugger is guilty of is being a little naive.

I think its totally unfair to question whether he's a genuine business or not and in some cases imply he's out to rip people off. Give the guy a break and judge him by what he actually does rather that what you think he's going to do.

Ren
1st November 2010, 10:26
Daz, personally I think the problem lies with whoever has dished out the discounts.

If it's Cosworth UK, then understandably the other dealers would be upset.

If it's Cosworth US & the company is brand new, importing, just set up on the internet then I think a healthy amount of skepticism is appropriate - I'm sure we've all been caught out somewhere along the line.

Perhaps in the current economic climate manufacturers (keen to shift as much product by any means necessary, rather than established channels) have issued hasty discounts.

I can understand both sides of this, but joining a forum full of your competitors (remember, snet is a forum of paying advertisers) & saying you're going to undercut them all probably isn't the smartest thing to do.

Lateral Performance Ltd
1st November 2010, 23:12
I think most people would understand why I would be peeved at finding my web site copied !

I did email Chris regarding this. Chris has replied, explained the situation, apologized, and it's sorted.


Daz,

You're showing double standards.

You can't turn around to me and say "welcome to the business world", when I'm unhappy about my web site being copied, and then shout "foul" when official Cosworth dealers complain about a company price cutting !

Welcome to the business world !

Oh, and even though I stock some of their product, I'm not a Cosworth dealer, and I'm certainly in no position to have any influence over who they deal with.


Mark.

KenC
1st November 2010, 23:54
Give the guy a break and judge him by what he actually does rather that what you think he's going to do. Daz, thats exactly what i was doing, i was like you and all for giving the guy a chance, i was gonna buy some bits off him when i seen the discount, but look at what he went and did then :eek: .
Maybe its just me but after that Cosworth offer disaster, i dont think i would feel too sure about handing over money too him and i dont think im alone on that :rolleyes: .

daz-davies
2nd November 2010, 01:13
Like I said he's done himself no favours now he's withdrawn his offer and the way he's handled it. He's also c*cked up with copying items from Mark's website.

Mark, for the record I don't blame you for being annoyed at him copying from your website that's just piss poor form on Chris' part. As you've said though he's had the decency to apologise and square that issue away.

Not too sure how I'm the one displaying double standards though. I've never once taken something, copied it and then passed it off as my own, well apart from my C++ programming assignment in my first year at uni but that's irrelivent here smile.gif

My intention was not to get into a bun fight with anyone nor were my points aimed at anyone in particular. I just thought it was poor form from all parties to pick on a young lad having a go at starting business.

Yes he's gone about it the wrong way but give the lad a break. Those involved have probably ruined any chance he's had of making a go of it. My perspective as someone completely independant without any vested interest is that's pretty unfair.

However its done now so no point dragging it out further and going round in circles with it all.