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Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 08:54
I don't have anything lined up, but I know I want one, as does steven, trout and probably a few more.

Any constructive comments (about the oil cooler GB!) welcomed

Paul

David_Wallis
2nd June 2004, 09:25
Me.

what are we looking at air coolers or laminova?

also mounting locations, drain back valves?

Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 09:28
air/oil will take some extra load of the water radiator, also my water temps were too high IMHO to make best use of a water/oil cooler.

Best would be a kit with take off plate, fittings, oil stat/anti drain valve, remote filter plate, high capacity filter and the cooler itself.

Paul

Steven
2nd June 2004, 09:28
what are the mocal ones like?

It would have to fit between the ic and rad on mine, although it was interesting to see the CRD one where the OEM TM would be.

Count me in on whatever the consensus is, but i want mine ASAP please.

Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 09:30
I think above the intercooler behind the grill would be better. Or in the pass side inner wing fed by a cold air feed

johnfelstead
2nd June 2004, 09:32
go direct to think automotive if you want decent prices. Avoid saving a few quid on cheapo fittings, make sure you use proper aeroquip hoses and fittings on all joints.

Steven
2nd June 2004, 09:38
I think above the intercooler behind the grill would be better. Or in the pass side inner wing fed by a cold air feedYup, even better

harvey
2nd June 2004, 09:55
Don't want to piss on your bonfire but it would be worth checking your oil temps before you go down this route. On the road I rarely see more than mid 90s and oil temp was not an issue last year even on a hot day round Croft at ten tenths.
Obviously some engines will run hotter but it would be worth checking for those without temp guages at present.

Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 09:59
Harvey,

My concern is also water related, with the queueing etc I was seeing 120C at the end of the 1/4 mile. Not helped by having a non operational fan on the day, and various other cooling issues (the pipe split etc). I didn't have time to put in the SPA gauge, but I know the oil was hot due to the oil coming out the breathers, which have been fine since.

So my personal preference is to get myself a little headroom overall with the addition of the oil cooler.

Paul

David_Wallis
2nd June 2004, 10:15
out mapping we were seeing 90+ water temps and up to 94deg oil temp (rising with boost)

Steven
2nd June 2004, 10:32
on the road driving in to work this morning, i was seeing 90 on 85mph cruise, and 95 peak in town.

Based on Harveys advice last year, i took the opportunity to move the oil temp sensor from the sump to above no3 with the new engine.

On cruise at 85mph with old engine and sensor in sump, i would see 80c. At then end of the quarter i would see 95c+

Paul, re water issues, i am thinking of dropping the temp kickin point dwon from 95 to 90. Also considering having an extra fan put on.

Harvey, can you confirm you were running 2 fans last year?

David_Wallis
2nd June 2004, 11:10
mine is at 92 on iirc as I asked pat to lower it..

Steven get a spare thermostat and try a small hole in it first..

David

David_Wallis
2nd June 2004, 11:11
also a point to bear in mind harvey as these engines are all ej25, 257's or relinered ej20's

Simon_
2nd June 2004, 11:26
Second the 92C as mine is spot on at that..
I know different car but 95C is too high imho.

Simon

chrome@home
2nd June 2004, 11:27
fwiw, after my 4th run (the 12.8) I was seeing oil temp of 98.9C!! :eek:
(210F on my analogue phantom guage)
I took one long break to cool down, and also turned off the engine whilst queing (occasionally)

probe is in the sump, thats on 2L btw..
would I benefit from an oil cooler seeing as the above is mainly aimed @ the 2.5 relined 2L's should I be worried on my standard Ej20?? :(

oil is:
Valvoline VR1SAE 5w 50

Btw- good to meet some of you on monday..finally put faces to 'names'..
thanks guys..

[ 02. June 2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: chrome@home ]

drb5=Dave McD
2nd June 2004, 11:42
i take it, it is bad if i see roughly 100C on me defi gauge then? hopin your all gonna turn round and say defi's are sh1t and can't tell you if even the car is started or not:S

Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 11:47
100C is fine for the oil

Paul

Slooby
2nd June 2004, 12:58
I'd be interested in an oil cooler for my engine, so count me in on the group buy

Steven
2nd June 2004, 15:45
Brad, that would suggest you are upto 110ish if it were in the gallery plug. My recordings are as per the defis.

Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 15:55
Having done some quick investigation of parts on Think Auto's site (they are part of Mocal I think) there is a big saving going to steel fittings, but still with the stainless braided hoses.

I think about 150 would cover the costs, but it would be more like 250 with aerospace fittings.

Power Engineering do the latter for 300 plus vat for comparison.

Paul

David_Wallis
2nd June 2004, 16:01
Im not spending that kind of money..

Im out.

David

WRXbruce
2nd June 2004, 16:33
Ive been looking into Oil coolers recentley and was also put off by the PE and Think Auto prices, I found this company http://www.kenlowe.com/ who quoted me 151 inc vat for an Impreza kit. I havent followed this up yet but its worth a look.

johnfelstead
2nd June 2004, 16:42
anything below 120 degrees oil temperature is acceptable on good quality oil. Circa 100 degrees on high speed cruise is normal for the sender in #3 galery.

On most engines oil temp runs 10-15 degrees higher than water temp.

If you are seeing less than 120 degrees oil and 100 degrees water on the hardest runs then you dont need a cooler IMHO.

Tone Loc
2nd June 2004, 16:44
Regarding which to go for.... i can only say that i've been very impressed with the Think (Mocal) system fitted to my friends track GTi-R. Looks like a quality piece of kit and even on a very hot day round Oulton the temps were rock steady lap after lap.

Tony.

chrome@home
2nd June 2004, 17:18
ok Steven.
thanks John.

think its safe to say then that I dont need one (yet) :D

mikeesingh
2nd June 2004, 18:21
i would be intrested in, if price is right
my oil temps where over 125 after 5 laps at donno last year,

mikee

Paul@Zen
2nd June 2004, 19:05
I will see if I have any luck with Mocal/Think and report back

Mr J
2nd June 2004, 19:06
Could also need one

Jan

David_Wallis
2nd June 2004, 21:20
Paul Im interested then as per reply to your mail.

David

harvey
3rd June 2004, 01:06
I agree with the temp. figs above posted by John (F).
My experience is only with 2litres and 2.5s will produce more heat I expect.
In the cruise I see 84-86 deg water and have never seen it above 96 deg. Biggest cause of water temp rise is ticking over in traffic. Oil is a similar temp in the cruise but can rise sharply 10 - 15 deg with prolonged WOT.
Oil viscosity will affect temp.

Steven: At the beginning of last year I had two fans but towards the end (cannot remember when) I had one. I have seen no difference in water temps other than it is probably slower to drop temp. in traffic. On the road temps are exactly as before. Fan only operates in traffic or when sat cooling down after a good run.

MONEY
3rd June 2004, 08:04
Think Automotive is up the road from me. Im going to get my oil cooler kit from there

My mate did it last year and bought all the bits from them

Will find out how much he got it from and i know they do discount to :D

Paul@Zen
3rd June 2004, 08:15
To clairfy, the 150 estimate is for a whole kit but using the pre swaged steel fittings with braided hose, then probably add 100 if you want to use the Aeroquip hoses instead, as they are significantly more expensive.

I have discussed with Mark @ LatP and he was keen to mount it under the bonnet scoop, which is better for LP/Pace style intercoolers.

I think getting a car to Think Automotive is the best route, or at least getting the bits and going to my local Pirtek to do the hose sizing.

Paul

Lateral Performance Ltd
3rd June 2004, 09:09
Paul,

The other thing we can consider, is the option of using an alternative filter ?

I'm not keen on the new Subaru micro filter, and wonder if something along the lines of what the Cossie uses would be better ?

Mark.

Paul@Zen
3rd June 2004, 09:28
for sure, remote filter can be much larger, and probably no more expensive

Paul

David_Wallis
3rd June 2004, 09:32
My concern is hose length etc..

Im very fussy about where they can run..

I dont want an oil cooler on top of my engine, Im limited for room there anyway..

I will be fitting mine in the passenger wheelarch.. (well behind front bumper)

Take off plate Must clear the headers and must not hang too low..

can we remove the std cooler to further lower water temps?

David

Paul@Zen
3rd June 2004, 09:38
Behind pass indicator is also being considered.

Takeoff plate will replace the standard cooler completely, so mucho clearance on the exhaust, will sit much higher in engine bay and the water system is completely relieved of the job.

Paul

David_Wallis
3rd June 2004, 10:22
Paul thats pretty much where I mean.. ducted from my fog light hole / vent under the indicator..

David

MorayMackenzie
3rd June 2004, 10:26
Will you be looking at pressure drop in the oil system caused by the new fittings and possibly adding a shim to the oil pressure relief valve to counteract this to some extent?

Andy.F
3rd June 2004, 10:33
Also consider that the OE oil/water heat exchanger has a duty as an oil warmer during cold start up. Running for extended periods with the oil too cool can also be detrimental to engine life and performance. Will you be considering a bypass type oil stat ?

Andy

MorayMackenzie
3rd June 2004, 10:39
How about a cold start bypass running through a laminova water/oil heat exchanger too, for the super delux kit. ;) smile.gif

Pavlo,

I have the first PE oilcooler kit sitting in my loft, I could have a look for the part numbers used if that is of any interest... not that it is necessarily the best starting point.

Paul@Zen
3rd June 2004, 10:42
My current plan would be to use an oil stat built into the takeoff plate. Don't want to use a straight flow oil cooler for sure.

I doubt there will be a significant drop in oil pressure at the galleries, although it can be measured.

Paul

Paul@Zen
3rd June 2004, 10:58
Right,

I am just listing all my outstanding tasks for everyone (the list is endless) and I can't be starting another job before clearing my responsibilities.

SO I don't have any time to mess around with this for a few weeks. Anyone that wants to get something going is welcome to.

Thanks

Paul

Andy.F
3rd June 2004, 11:00
Does anyone else have lower oil pressure (at say 3000 rpm) when the oil is cold to when it is warm/hot ?
I do and it rings alarm bells for me that the filter is too small or the oil too thick ? If it is lower at the mid gallery, what pressure is it at by the time it gets to more remote parts ?
It didn't do it with the wishy washy running in oil but does with the Motul.

David_Wallis
3rd June 2004, 11:09
cant say I'd noticed.. I was using a small filter and seeing around 80 - 90 psi oil pressure iirc..

Dont dare try and get oil pressure at the moment redface.gif

David

David_Wallis
3rd June 2004, 11:17
Ill see what I can sort with regards to coolers and discounts smile.gif

All those interested add your name to the list..

1) David Wallis
2) Steven Darley
3) Paul Blamire
4) Tim Whiteside
5) Mikee Singh
6) MR J

David_Wallis
3rd June 2004, 11:19

David_Wallis
3rd June 2004, 11:25
emailed think auto

Zoidberg
3rd June 2004, 12:07
1) David Wallis
2) Steven Darley
3) Paul Blamire
4) Tim Whiteside
5) Mikee Singh
6) MR J
7) ChristianR

MONEY
3rd June 2004, 13:13
1) David Wallis
2) Steven Darley
3) Paul Blamire
4) Tim Whiteside
5) Mikee Singh
6) MR J
7) ChristianR
8) Money

Depends on price of course. Spoke to my guy who used THink automotive, cost him just over 100 for the kit.

If this group buy doesnt happen, im just going to go and get the kit as im not sure how much we will save from a 100 product?

Worth a shot though :D

Paul@Zen
3rd June 2004, 13:16
it depends how to you do it, size of cooler, VAT, hose type etc.

sandwhich plate setup is cheaper as it uses one plate, and 1 less hose.

rubber hoses also cheaper

I think 150 all in is about the mark, but that was with no discount for buying as a kit, and no discount for buying say 10 at a time.

Paul

MONEY
3rd June 2004, 14:26
Ill see if i can get some pics up at the weekend of his set up, looks good.

Hopefully think Automotive will do some good discount :D :D :D

Steven
3rd June 2004, 15:17
Andy, i havent noticed that on mine.

Slooby
3rd June 2004, 20:38
I'd rather not have the cooler up by the scoop because I won't have one! I prefer David W's idea of down in the front bumper area around the fog light hole, ideally the nearside (rhs as you look at the car), I want to duct air to the inlet on the offside ;)

Cord
3rd June 2004, 20:59
I will have on mine by the weekend, and have fitted the same kit to a few impreza's.

It consists of a thermostatic valved sandwich take off, 2 45 -10 fittings (sandwich plate end) 2 straight -10 fittings (cooler end) 1.5 metres of push on -10 hosing (steel overbraided hose is too expensive, to big on the outside diameter, and not flexible enough) and the cooler is a 115mm matrix 15 row which sits behind the grill on the passenger side.

if people are interested I will post pictures next week.

johnfelstead
4th June 2004, 00:12
never saw that on my engine Andy, presures always were lower as the oil temp rose, idle and through the rev range. I would check your oil pump relief valve and use a new oil filter just to eliminate them.

I cant stress enough how you must avoid fittings with this kit that require jubilee type clamps on the pipes. Through all the years i have been involved in racing, the most common failure on competitors engines has been oil pipes popping off when using these cheap fittings. It isnt worth the risk.

A very cheap way for people to check oil temperature to see if a cooler is needed is to buy some temperature strips and stick them on the oil filter, it's remarkably acurate at showing you the peak temperature your oil reached.

Andy is also spot on, cold oil is more of an issue on raod cars than too hot an oil temp, use a thermostatic control if you are using an oil/air cooler.

Also please make sure you pay attention to how you mount the cooler in terms of pipe input, its common for people to install the cooler matrix upside down which causes air locks in the cooler and makes bleeding them dificult.

Paul@Zen
4th June 2004, 08:03
there has been no mention of jubiliee clips!

Steel with swaged ferules, aeroquip, or aeroquip push on. The later as amazingly effective when used with the correct hose. A tip for anyone assembling them though is to use a hair drier to heat the end of the hose.

The push on stuff is rated to work at 250psi and 150C with (non pulsed) oil applications.

Paul

Adamantium
4th June 2004, 14:58
1) David Wallis
2) Steven Darley
3) Paul Blamire
4) Tim Whiteside
5) Mikee Singh
6) MR J
7) ChristianR
8) Money
9) Adam M

187
5th June 2004, 19:30
I will be in sunject to price Iwas actually looking into prices recently I found this website from the states: http://home.att.net/~teaguesauto/motor.htm#Motor%20Oil%20Related

Scroll down to the flex-a-lite oil cooler its $119......~65 pickles.

Steven
7th June 2004, 07:55
Just observed a few things this morning, oil temps of :-

80c in gallery, pressure just shy of 7bar at idle

90c in gallery, pressure 6bar at idle

100c in gallery, pressure 5bar at idle

Oil is motul 300v competition.

steven

johnfelstead
7th June 2004, 12:07
thats a very high hot oil presure steven. Mine would idle at 3BAR at 100C

Steven
7th June 2004, 13:00
yeah, old engine used to be between 3 and 4 bar at idle of 800rpm without motul at 80c sump.

idle on this engine is 1000rpm, and has motul in it now, awith rcm oil pump.

Andy.F
7th June 2004, 22:02
My pressure is almost identical to yours steven when running Motul, the difference is when the oil is 10-20C It is down at 5bar again, even when I blip the throttle, it needs 40 deg+ to stabilise.

I never rag it cold anyway but with the Motul being thicker I think there may be a supply limitation at the lower temps. This could be in the pick up pipe or filter ? less likely to be the relief valve or the pressure would be even higher !

Andy

Adamantium
8th June 2004, 10:04
that is a bit worrying is it not?

especially since people blanket buy this stuff on the recommendation of those who "know". I know I did.

I wonder though if the same people still know to not put their foot down whilst the oil is cold or do they assume that an oil this recommended could cope?

Steven
8th June 2004, 10:15
i drive the car, as and how i feel, but generally try to keep things limited until temps are up past 70c

andy, i will do some cold oil checks tonight when i leave the office.

Simon_
8th June 2004, 10:43
Originally posted by Adam M:
I wonder though if the same people still know to not put their foot down whilst the oil is cold or do they assume that an oil this recommended could cope? I think you would be hard pushed to find any oil that would cope with the stresses put on the internals razzing the car from cold...

Adamantium
8th June 2004, 11:16
thats true, but my experience with redline in the past has shown far better results than those andy is describing.

Simon_
8th June 2004, 11:20
Originally posted by Adam M:
thats true, but my experience with redline in the past has shown far better results than those andy is describing. Better when cold or better full stop??

If when cold then a consideration but 99.9% of people will be taking it easy then anyway..

If the pressure is better when hot with the Motul then that is better surely.

Simon

johnfelstead
8th June 2004, 15:01
you use redline engine oil Adam?

Obviously you shouldnt rag these engines until the oil is up to temperature, mine stayed off boost until i saw 80 degrees oil temp.

Adamantium
8th June 2004, 15:07
this was long ago john, before the engine died at standstill aftre the standard 70mph cruise followed by sitting at idle at a roundabout.

at the time of failure the engine oil was motul 300v.

Prior to that for about 12000 miles I was running redline engine oil of similar weight and cost. Can't remember exactly which, may have an old bottle at home somewhere, I just remember it being supplied in an odd quantity (quarts possibly).

simon, I was referring to better low temperature performance.

idle when cold was 6 bar dropping to 2 bar.

with motul it was 6.5-7 dropping to 2.5 bar when warm (80 to 90 on cruise 100 to 105 during spirited driving on a warm day).

I can't comment on the accuracy fo the readings, but all were provided by defi gauges. temp sender was fitted above no 3 gallery, pressure sender was via a t-piece at the locatin of the standard pressure warning light.

[ 08. June 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Adam M ]

Steven
8th June 2004, 18:49
defis only start reading at 50c, so cant see what pressure is at andys measurements.

started engine in car park, idle 1200 rpm, 7bar oil pressure, drive 100 meters, junction, idle 1000rpm, pressure 6.5bar, drove 1 mile, and still below 50c and 6.5 to 7bar(fluctuating), then in petrol station a further mile 50c temps just starting to record, and 7 bar oil pressure.

do you think the RCM oil pump has an effect?

Some mildly spirited runs on way home from a clients, 2 consecutive wot in 4th, 1bar boost, and temps went upto 110c.

Steven

nom
8th June 2004, 20:16
I'm just wondering about the use of these oil coolers...

Isn't the only real problem when sitting 'on the line', etc. waiting for the off (or in traffic, I suppose smile.gif ), and therefore there's actually no air, as such, to act for the temperature exchange?
Isn't a better solution simply to whomp the largest great sod-off fan (or two) to get air through the radiator & let the water/oil heat exchanger do its job?
Or am I missing the point? :D

Richard.D
8th June 2004, 22:01
What is the 'above #3 galley' best position for the temp sensor? I'm dubious of introducing another single point of failure unless strictly required.

More of a concern (for me) is gearbox oil temps. Has anyone measured? Where's best place for sensor here too?

And does anyone know whether the external oil pipework on the 6MT is pump driven to allow the easy introduction of a cooler if required?

Richard (who is sorry for dragging off topic)

David_Wallis
8th June 2004, 22:56
Fairly sure the pipe is the feed to the spraybar on the cwp.. could check..

Im also interested in gearbox oil temps.. as it must get heat from the engine.. and the transmission losses must be dissapated as heat.

David

David_Wallis
9th June 2004, 09:43
1) David Wallis
2) Steven Darley
3) Paul Blamire
4) Tim Whiteside
5) Mikee Singh
6) MR J
7) ChristianR
8) Money
9) Adam M

Trout??

Simon_
9th June 2004, 09:51
Originally posted by nom:
I'm just wondering about the use of these oil coolers...

Isn't the only real problem when sitting 'on the line', etc. waiting for the off (or in traffic, I suppose smile.gif ), and therefore there's actually no air, as such, to act for the temperature exchange?
Isn't a better solution simply to whomp the largest great sod-off fan (or two) to get air through the radiator & let the water/oil heat exchanger do its job?
Or am I missing the point? :D You will still get some disipartion of heat from the exchanger which would be at say 90C and surrounding air being 30C.
The coolant temp still needs to be within normal parameters, if you dropped it too much you would get the thermostate shutting at 68C I think it is.

Ideally I would say the fitment on an oil cooler and oil temps monitored you could then fit a fan to the under side of that to suck in air whilst stationary if it doesn't hold the oil temp in a more desired temperature range on it's own.

Also the heat soak under the bonnet will still cause the oil to get heated despite the water being cooler as the OE oil cooler donut is just not meant to cope with that much heat and the larger turbos being run etc..

imho of course

Simon

David_Wallis
9th June 2004, 09:54
OI this is a group buy thread! Start a new one.. or will someone please moderate this into a new one.

Simon_
9th June 2004, 09:55
Sorry :(

David_Wallis
9th June 2004, 09:59
smile.gif

nom
9th June 2004, 13:00
Sorry from here too smile.gif

David_Wallis
10th June 2004, 22:30
No replies as yet :confused:

Slooby
11th June 2004, 09:08
Err...when is this group buy going to take place?

I'm going to need bits very soon, otherwise they'll have to be fitted after the running in period

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 09:17
**** knows.. if you want to try and make them reply then feel free..

David

Steven
11th June 2004, 09:39
Who have you contacted?

Will need it soon i think.

Slooby
11th June 2004, 09:41
Think aren't to far away from me...and, erm, I have rather a lot of free time now...I could go over there and sort it if that's what you mean David?

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 09:50
I dont know who ive attempted to contact..

David

Slooby
11th June 2004, 09:51
Ok...had a blow to the head this morning or summat? ;)

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 09:59
ffs.. whats so ****ing hard about this.. sent them emails and no reply.. therefore dont know.

Cant be arsed with any hassle, so someone else feel free to bang their head against a wall.

David

Steven
11th June 2004, 10:02
Chill DW

Tim, do as you have offered will you?

Steven

Simon_
11th June 2004, 10:05
Calm down dear its a commercial :D

Slooby
11th June 2004, 10:12
PMSL @ Simon :D

Steven; roger, wilco!

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 10:23
ahhh cough

Paul@Zen
11th June 2004, 10:48
I will be sorting this out one way or another.

Either as me just getting kits made at sensible prices, or as me doing kits on a commercial basis for similar money, hopefully less.

I NEED a cooler prior to TOTB and so I will make sure i have at least a few sets ready for people to install when they do their pre TOTB oil change ;)

Paul

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 11:03
I NEED a cooler prior to TOTBI wasnt aware the team had been chosen :confused: ;)

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 11:04
ps cheers paul, but tim has offed to resolve it.. I just cant really get away with aranging oil cooler prices during work hours at the moment.

Slooby
11th June 2004, 11:26
Right, had a chat with a chap from Think.

His feelings were:

Keep the donut oil cooler for it's warming up properties. Thermostatic valve may not be necessary.

16 Row cooler should be sufficient

Remote mounting the filter would be a good idea, if we went for a thermostat this could be inline, or a sandwich plate on the remote filter.

List prices (inc VAT) as follows:

16 Row cooler, 235mm wide, 124mm tall (to plates) 51mm thick: 79.90

Sandwich plate with side mounted ports and blanking plate inc. 2 x male to male adapters: 35.25

Sandwich plate with top mounted ports and blanking plate inc. 2 x male to male adapters: 19.98

Remote Filter housing inc. 2 x male to male adapters: 23.50

Thermostatic Sandwich plate inc. 2 x male to male adapters: 47.00

Inline thermostat: 50.53

Rubber Hose: 10.58 / m

90 degree Fittings: 9.40 each
Straight Fittings: 3.53 each


So, suggestions:

Option 1 - Oil Cooler Only

16 Row Cooler
Side mounted Sandwich Plate
3m of Hose
4 x 90 degree fittings

List = 184.49


Option 1 - Oil Cooler and Remote Filter

16 Row Cooler
Top mounted Sandwich Plate
Remote Filter Housing
6m of Hose
2 x 90 degree fittings
4 x Straight fittings

List = 219.78 exc a filter

Thermostat is going to add 47.00

Apart from the prices which we know can be bettered, any comments?

David_Wallis
11th June 2004, 11:29
pricing is far too expensive IMHO.

What type of hose and fittings?

David

Slooby
11th June 2004, 11:31
Rubber hose, and steel fittings IIRC

Paul@Zen
11th June 2004, 12:03
the thermostat doesn't add 47. The thermostatic sandwhich plate is 47. SO you need to subtract the cost of the non stat plate.

On a budget I would say go with the sandwhich plate, with std filter location, but include the thermostat. SO correcting for the other errors you something more like:

16 Row cooler, 235mm wide, 124mm tall (to plates) 51mm thick: 79.90

Thermostatic Sandwich plate inc. 2 x male to male adapters: 47.00

5/8 bore Rubber hose 7.61/m 19.04 total (2.5m)
5/8 bore Braided Hose: 14.78 / m 36.95 total (2.5m)

90 degree Fittings: 4.27 each 8.54 total
Straight Fittings: 2.14 each 4.28 total

176.67 with stat and braided hose.
158.76 with stat and rubber hose.

need to add about 2.50 for hose assembly cost.

Is 5/8" hose too large? would 1/2" be big enough?

Then there should be a discount for 5 to 10 kits

Paul

Slooby
11th June 2004, 12:50
Paul, as I understood it the Thermastatic switch had to come after the oil filter that was why I thought it was needed as well as the plain sandwich plate.

MorayMackenzie
11th June 2004, 13:23
If the group buy is going to be a bulk purchase of parts to make up different kits, would I be able to join in and get a couple of parts to let me turn the PowerEngineering oilcooler kit festering in my loft into something halfway decent?

187
13th June 2004, 15:11
Just looking on the mocal website and the prices direct from them seem slightly cheaper than the ones already quoted.

Steven
14th June 2004, 07:57
Can some one sort something soon, otherwise i will just get my own.

Slooby
14th June 2004, 10:05
I will sort it, but what style of kit does everybody want?

Do you want a simple kit that retains the standard oil filter, or the slightly more complex but ultimately more usefull remote filter kit?

If I know what people want I'll ring round and bash the prices about!

Steven
14th June 2004, 10:14
Simple for me, no point making things more complicated.

David_Wallis
14th June 2004, 10:36
more complex here.

Slooby
14th June 2004, 10:37
The main reasons for going for the slightly more complex remote filter set upo as I see it are:

The Filter isn't right next to the exhaust and the sump
You can use a larger filter

Worth considering on larger capacity engines

Slooby
16th June 2004, 13:38
Erm, chaps? What am I to do?

David_Wallis
16th June 2004, 14:19
Get some prices that look like a groupbuy discount has been applied..

David

Slooby
16th June 2004, 14:59
Ok, had a chat with the man from Think, 25% discount for 5 or more kits.

So Group buy prices (based on the price I was given inc VAT):

Option 1 - Oil Cooler Only

16 Row Cooler
Side mounted Sandwich Plate
3m of Hose
4 x 90 degree fittings

GB Price = 138.37

Thermostat is going to add 8.82


Option 2 - Oil Cooler and Remote Filter

16 Row Cooler
Top mounted Sandwich Plate
Remote Filter Housing
6m of Hose
2 x 90 degree fittings
4 x Straight fittings

List = 164.84 exc a filter

Thermostat is going to add 35.25

Looks a bit better doesn't it :D

David_Wallis
16th June 2004, 15:19
not really.. what about if we go to mocal direct?

Slooby
16th June 2004, 15:32
I thought Think were Mocal?

Paul@Zen
16th June 2004, 15:51
mocal is think

David_Wallis
16th June 2004, 16:03
whatever.. personally I think we should try other suppliers first..

David

WRXbruce
16th June 2004, 17:04
This is the parts list and price I got from www.kenlowe.com (http://www.kenlowe.com)

KEOC/3/TC Oil cooler for engine, complete with sandwich plate with
thermostat, pipes, fittings and comprehensive instructions for easy DIY
installation Please advise make and reference of oil filter used and
pipe lengths required (total of up to 6 included). Pipes normally
supplied with straight fittings to sandwich plate and elbows to cooler.
Please state choice of fittings (straight / elbow) if different.


PRICE 128.73 + 22.53 VAT = 151.26

this was for a 1 off purchase. They could be worth a call to talk about group discounts

Slooby
16th June 2004, 18:24
I'll give them a call tomorrow, they're only a few minutes away from where I am staying at the moment, thanks Bruce!

David_Wallis
16th June 2004, 21:42
smile.gif

Slooby
17th June 2004, 11:04
Called Kenlowe and they were very helpfull :D

Going to look at the options and prices for us, I'll send him some pics of my engine on a stand to illustrate how close the exhaust manifold runs to the filter housing. With any luck should get an answer this week

David_Wallis
17th June 2004, 11:18
bear in mind some of us are considering removing the existing oil cooler smile.gif

Slooby
17th June 2004, 14:39
Why? The guy from Think thought keeping the exisiting cooler wouldn't be a bad idea because it would assist warming up.

Either way I assume a sandwich plate could take it's place...although what would you do with the long hollow bolt?

David_Wallis
17th June 2004, 15:01
remove it.. duh.

I dont want it really.. I want to try and get my water temps down.. Im seeing upto 100deg. and obviously removing this would remove the strain..

I am categorically not interested in lowering the oil filter.. as Im likely to smash it off.. which wouldnt be fun! Hence wanting to relocate the filter... fu ck knows where tho.

Slooby
17th June 2004, 15:23
Behind the sump on a bracket?

David_Wallis
17th June 2004, 17:57
nah. chassis leg and passenger wheel arch are my choice..

David_Wallis
20th June 2004, 15:03
Tim..

Can you get pricing ASAP? as both myself and steven are desperate.

I would like to do the following, but If you could check..

Remove existing oil cooler.. replace with sandwich plate with built in stat and keep oilfilter there, then have an oil cooler around 240 x 200mm and around 50mm thick? with anti drain back valve if required. and enough hose to go to the wheel arch.

OR..

keep oil cooler and relocated filter due to not wanting to rip the filter off on the floor.. and still run stat etc.

David

Adamantium
20th June 2004, 15:45
david, I would rather run existing cooler due to warming properties in the winter.

Suggestion from tim at the dyno has been to keep the system as simple as possible, specifically with regard to a stat which adds complexity and has a tendancy to jam.

His advice was to do away with it and have an inline tap which is open in summer and closed in winter.

StanS
20th June 2004, 19:34
My 2p worth.
Based on my assumption that IDEALLY oil temp should be about 90C - 80C too cold, much over 100C and getting too hot. Please tell me if this is wrong !!

Fitted my oil cooler about 2 months ago and until recent "hottish" spell struggled to get up to low 80'sC under normal driving (occasional blat). Now blocked front of cooler with plastic sheet and in hot spell was normally in high 80's rising to low 90's when giving it a bit of welly.
Track day with cooler exposed it got to mid-high 90's (not 100).
Am in process of fitting by-pass + 2 valves so it is mostly disconnected except for hot weather or track time.

Another "problem" was the drop in oil pressure with the long pipe run. Back from sandwich, round the chassis members then forwards to go to cooler in front of rad (tilted top of rad back slightly to get it in). Its at top of rad, drivers side. Pressure more or less reaches old peak pressure but up to about 4krpm I lost about 10psi. But it ticks over at slightly higher pressure !!??

Stan

Slooby
21st June 2004, 12:24
Right, been on the phone to Kenlowe again.

Not good news I'm affraid, their standard kit only has a 10 row cooler included in it.

I gave them the prices that we had got from Think along with photos and dimensions taken from my car and they have had a look into building a similar kit. They have said that they wouldn't be competative on the prices, and that we had been given a good deal by Think...

So, anyone got some other ideas?

David_Wallis
21st June 2004, 12:57
well I may have a source for cheap coolers, but we still need the hardware to fit them.

David

Slooby
21st June 2004, 13:11
We can still get all the hardware from Think or Demon Tweeks

David_Wallis
21st June 2004, 13:13
tim.. company called northern radiators in leeds..

give them a call and speak to mick singh..

I spoke to him to see if they did coolers and they do.. he couldnt get pricing at the time though.

Slooby
21st June 2004, 13:17
I'll get on it...will have to wait till tomorrow now, I'm just setting off to Dorset...

MorayMackenzie
22nd June 2004, 11:41
Before finalising the design, it might be worth having a look at the system that Subaru/STI released as a factory fit part on the Spec C cars. If it's an officially sanctioned design, it might hold some useful design pointers for DIY oil cooler kits. smile.gif

MorayMackenzie
22nd June 2004, 12:04
http://www.vividracing.com/images/sti/stioilcoolerkit.gif

This is the STI oil cooler kit for new age cars... I don't know if the spec C kit is the same as this or not.

David_Wallis
22nd June 2004, 12:48
does the s202 or spec c retain the doughnut style cooler?

Steven
22nd June 2004, 13:00
Any chance you know a part number for that moray?

;)

David_Wallis
22nd June 2004, 13:53
suggest you have a look at vivid racing as that is where the pic is linked from

Simon_
23rd June 2004, 07:24
Would it not be better.. to plumb the OE oil donut with water with a separate rad and electric pump?

Then the pump can be set to run at a set temp say 80C for normal running with an override switch for the track or strip.

Currently it is trying to cool oil which needs to be below 110C with water that is at about 90-100C and hence too high oil temp is happening.

This would not effect warm up, would not pose a risk in dropping the oil pressure and not cost the earth as we just need a small water rad to go either below the scoop or behind the bumper a bit of pipework and an electric pump and temperature switch.. I think you can even buy variable temp switch so it could be played with to get the oil temp where you want it?

Simon

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 08:58
Good thinking out of the box there Simon, I quite like that idea...I'm going to look for a suitable rad now ;)

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 09:11
Tim.. any news on the other, for those of us not convinced about simons idea.

Simon_
23rd June 2004, 09:15
lol..

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 09:31
No more news yet...more later hopefully though

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 09:55
what do you call later?

David

Steven
23rd June 2004, 10:01
So can we go for something along like

Option 2 - Oil Cooler and Remote Filter

16 Row Cooler
Top mounted Sandwich Plate with thermostat
Remote Filter Housing
6m of Hose
2 x 90 degree fittings
4 x Straight fittings

List = 200.09 exc a filter

Can we get the thermostat to operate at around 95degree, so it uses the cooler at that temp and above?

Really need this sooner, rather than later, so anything you can get sorted would be great Tim

Steven

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 10:07
cord reckons we dont need to relocate the filter as he has fitted a few and says they dont hang too low..

MorayMackenzie
23rd June 2004, 10:08
Simon.,

"This would not effect warm up, "

I wouldn't be so sure of this. Coolant water temperature rises faster than lubrication oil temp. The subrau cooler reduces warm up time as whilst the water is hotter than the oil, the heat exchange direction is water to oil... when the oil temperature becomes higher than the water temp, the exchange direction reverses.

On a scooby, I suspect the water and oil temps will rise at a similar rate _because_ of the water/oil heat echanger (and, possibly, to an extent, because the alloy block warms quicker).

If you plumb a seperate system, you will probably extend warm up times.

MorayMackenzie
23rd June 2004, 10:11
David,

"cord reckons we dont need to relocate the filter as he has fitted a few and says they dont hang too low.."

The STI kit pictured above doesn't seem to have a remote filter mount either. smile.gif

Mind you, if you were to mount the filter remotely, you could use a much larger and possibly better quality filter, or two, in its place.

You could mount two toyota turbo filters in parallel... that could offer some benefits. smile.gif

Moray

Simon_
23rd June 2004, 10:15
okay fair comment Moray..

I was assuming with no water flowing it would heat up the same but you are right in that it uses the water temp to heat it during warm up.

So I need a couple of valves to switch water flow too smile.gif lol

Steven
23rd June 2004, 10:16
Ok then so

Option 1 - Oil Cooler Only

16 Row Cooler
Side mounted Sandwich Plate with thermostat
3m of Hose
4 x 90 degree fittings

GB Price = 147.19

Are we/can we get somewhere with this?

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 10:34
I think I will relocate the filter at a later dater.. saves complications at the moment..

Cooler I want is 200x200-240 ish..

Dunno what sizes they are though.

David

Paul@Zen
23rd June 2004, 11:08
yes I would like a cooler kit at hte 147.19 price

I don't want to keep the donut.

So

16 row cooler kit with stat:

Steven
Pavlo

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 12:02
David, what's wrong with the 16 row cooler(235mm wide, 124mm tall (to plates) 51mm thick)?

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 12:06
An 25 row cooler which is 196mm high (to the plates) by 235 wide would be around 25 quid more expensive from what I can see.

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 12:15
that fine.. I just measured the maximum I could get in..

Steven
23rd June 2004, 12:18
is that a yes then David?

16 row cooler kit with stat:

Steven
Pavlo
David?

He says impatiently :D

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 12:27
Spoke to Serck Marston, they can do just the oil cooler, they don't do the take off plates and fittings as such.

A 16 row, 235 wide matrix with 5/8th bsp fittings is 52.88 + vat (62.14 inc) with 10 to 15% discount available for a group buy.

Mick from Northern Radiators is working on a price based on 10 coolers to beat Serck.

So the cooler is a lot cheaper than Think, but I wonder if we'll get such a deal on the price for all the fixings?

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 12:29
16 row cooler kit with stat:

Steven
Pavlo
David?
Tim

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 12:31
Originally posted by David_Wallis:
cord reckons we dont need to relocate the filter as he has fitted a few and says they dont hang too low.. I'd say we're safe if the filter doesn't hang below the headers...almost tempted to fit a skid plate now!

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 12:58
yes its a yes.. but Ill pay the extra to go up in size as Im still removing the existing oil cooler, due to having a smaller radiator now.

Adamantium
23rd June 2004, 13:14
so the sti kit is officially sanctioned by subaru?

well that must be the one to have, because its not as if they were the ones who sanctioned the standard design which leads to unknown big end failures! :rolleyes:

going to ring tim to have the options explained then will contemplate joining in.

David, where have the measured this space that is available to you?

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 13:50
Originally posted by David_Wallis:
yes its a yes.. but Ill pay the extra to go up in size as Im still removing the existing oil cooler, due to having a smaller radiator now. ahh, that could make getting the cheaper price from Mick a problem then, if we were all getting the same part it's easier to get a discount!

I'll be speaking to him again in a few minutes, and will ask him for a 1 off price on a larger core for you David

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 13:57
tell him he is making me a radiator from my drawings and allready had too much money from me allready.

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 14:00
Will do

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 14:14
Right, spoke to Mick again

His prices for the cooler only are:

10 off 16 row, 235 wide oil coolers with eiterh 1/2 or 3/4 BSP fittings: 48.00 + VAT so 56.40 each.

David, just for you he has in stock at this very moment a 25 row (194mm tall) 235mm wide cooler for 82.25 all in ;) Can't recall what fitting size though, it's either 1/2 or 3/4 BSP

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 14:19
FOOKIN ell, why is everything so Damn expensive.

Paul@Zen
23rd June 2004, 14:22
Good ducting on the standard 16 row cooler would be sufficient I think. Sylines commonly use a 13 row cooler so i think we should manage

Paul

Slooby
23rd June 2004, 14:22
Possibly because they have to be capable of withstanding higher pressures than a water rad?

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 14:33
Right Ill stick with a 16 row then smile.gif

MorayMackenzie
23rd June 2004, 14:42
"well that must be the one to have, because its not as if they were the ones who sanctioned the standard design which leads to unknown big end failures! :rolleyes: "

What a completely pointless comment. :rolleyes:

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 14:46
Moray.. I know but Im just wondering if it is overkill.. surely with a thermostat there isnt a problem going a little bigger??

MorayMackenzie
23rd June 2004, 14:58
I guess you meant to address Paul. smile.gif

Adamantium
23rd June 2004, 16:29
It wasn't pointless in the slightest. Fact is, as far as I am concerned sti sanctioned part are not to be trusted on trademark alone as they have been responsible for far too many engine failures including one of my own.

but thanks for pointing that out, I shall remember to point out each of your own pointless comments in the future.

With regard to the kit that Tim is amassing, can someone confirm a few points with regard to the flow of oil around the system.

I assume the thermostat is like a bypass valve in that when the oil is too hot it opens to allow oil that would have simply flowed through the sandwich plate and into the filter to flow through the cooler then back to the plate then into the filter.

is this correct or does the cooler come after the filter?

where is the cooler with regard to the sump? is it after the pickup and pump on the way to the engine or on the way back from the engine. I ask because I am interested to know what happens when it comes to priming the thing on installation. EG. would air bubbles matter?

Antnio Correia Jr
23rd June 2004, 16:45
Just a comment.

Im running a laminova unit. Judging from my experience and british winter, I really dont think its a good idea to remove the standard oil cooler.

In my case, oil temp takes ages to rise to normal levels. Its a pretty good setup for weekend / track use, but definitely not for everyday use.

Of course, a thermostat may be a way to get around this.

David_Wallis
23rd June 2004, 17:20
a thermostat will get around this.

MorayMackenzie
24th June 2004, 11:01
Adam,

"Fact is, as far as I am concerned sti sanctioned part are not to be trusted on trademark alone as they have been responsible for far too many engine failures including one of my own."

_Prove_ that STI are responsible for your engine's failure.

If you cannot, then please try not to make such statements as though they are proveable facts.

Moray

Adamantium
24th June 2004, 11:16
it doesn't need to be proven, standard servicing practice across hundred of cars has shown that for an unidentifiable reason the big ends let go. This is not just in england but across the globe.

How many subarus delears have replaced short blocks under warranty? it would seem they were not able to disprove subarus accountability.

Since subaru are a sub division of STI I am referring to them as the same company, plus a standard proprtion of the failed engines have been STIs.

In the absence of a valid reason (scapegoat) isn't it it is perfectly acceptable to expect the manufacturer to be responsible for the longevity of the engine through normal use?

Anyway, this is beyond the point, can you possibly turn you keen knowledge and understanding to the questions I asked above as I suspect you are one of the few people who will know the correct answers. Your answers will be the basis of my decision to join the group buy.

Paul@Zen
24th June 2004, 11:35
Adam,

Is normal use covered by running an engine designed for 100octane and speed limited to 112mph, on 97/98 ron fuel with the speed limiter disabled?

Paul

MorayMackenzie
24th June 2004, 11:49
Paul's points seconded. smile.gif

With aftermarket turbocharger, air filter, exhaust, engine management and so on?

Also purchased used, so no absolute guarantee it was entirely unmolested prior to purchase.

I am suprised that subaru are a subdivision of STI... I had always assumed the opposite, thanks for straightening that out. ;)

MorayMackenzie
24th June 2004, 11:56
WRT the oil cooler location in the lubrication system question... as Pat and I have mentioned during a discussion (or two?) with you in the past, the oil cooler is still located between the oil pump and the oil filter. smile.gif

David_Wallis
24th June 2004, 15:51
lets forget this shit.. and concentrate on the group buy, maybe this week??

Paul@Zen
24th June 2004, 16:04
that would be nice, next week suit me a little better from a money standpoint

Adamantium
24th June 2004, 16:15
ffs, never drive over 112mph, always on 98 plus NF and that was referring to my car. Plenty standard cars (as honoured by warranties) have failed, including P1s (see the thread) which are remapped for UK fuel.

obviously I meant sti is part of subaru, I should have remembered you are the most pedantic person I know.

David is spot on, rather than chastise me for what you have told me before, you say everything in such a monotone it is difficult to knwo what is interesting from what isn't (most isn't), can we not stick to the point here?

What I want to know is where does the oil cooler plumb in in relation to the standard oil cooler/warmer donut?

I presume it is upstream of said donut since the stat is in the take off plate. I recall my take off plate for the dyno having two holes in it, I assume one goes to and the other from the filter. This is where I get confused.

If the stat is in the new take off plate, does it open a bypass passage which leads to oil cooler which then flows to the donut cooler/warmer and then the filter?

and in the event that the stat is closed oil flows through the take off plate and straight to the donut and then filter.

Reason for concern is how do you fill the system and ensure no air bubbles if you are filling against a closed stat with cold oil?

Does this mean it is entirely possible that the first time the stat opens even with the filter fully primed that you start pumping air bubbles around the system.

If this is the case, is there a way of plumbing the cooler on the return side of the oil, after the engine but before it gets to the sump? I suspect not but its worth a try.

Please don't reply with a snide remark or "you already know this". I want to know the answer as it will determine whether or not I order the kit along with everyone else.

MorayMackenzie
24th June 2004, 16:46
David,

Good call. Sorry for getting caught up in the pointless diversion.

Who is arranging the buy at the moment, is it Tim or Paul?

I asked about the posibility of getting a core through the buy but I don't think there was a reply. Who would be the guy to contact?

Cheers,

Moray

Paul@Zen
24th June 2004, 17:02
not I

all Tim's work so far

StanS
24th June 2004, 18:58
The thermostat valve is always open slightly to stop cold oil suddenly going into the system when the thermostat opens. So this will prevent air locks etc. As per my previous post, I have found that my oil temp in this weather (15 - 18C air temp) struggles to get to 80C even with the front of the cooler blanked off with a sheet of plastic.
Also the long pipe run has lost me 10psi pressure below 4krpm.
I am fitting a bipass loop/valves so the cooler can be shut off except on track days or air temps over 25C.
Stan

Slooby
25th June 2004, 09:31
Hmm, that doesn't sound Ideal.

Stan, can I ask what size and make of cooler you used?

David_Wallis
25th June 2004, 10:47
Right.. forget it.. Im out of the group buy.. as is steven.

David

Slooby
25th June 2004, 11:15
Fair enough, I'll not bother with this anymore then.

Paul@Zen
25th June 2004, 11:45
So this is the best our collective effort can do?

How very poor

MorayMackenzie
25th June 2004, 12:21
Paul,

I am still of the opinion that STI might have spent some time and effort in making the descision to include an oil cooler as standard on the spec C car. Maybe they use a more compact core than some aftermarket stuff, to prevent overcooling. I don't know for sure at the moment, but I will be looking further into this.

I will hopefully have the chance to have a closer look at the setup (parts, locations and routing etc...) fitted on a Spec C later this week. smile.gif

I'll let you know anything interesting that I might spot. smile.gif I, for one, am still far from convinced that this is a bad idea. smile.gif

Cheers,

Moray

Slooby
25th June 2004, 12:27
Originally posted by Pavlo:
So this is the best our collective effort can do?

How very poor Yep, and it's probably because it's a collective effort where no one can agree. Pointless

Paul@Zen
25th June 2004, 12:48
Still worth pursuing, I will be picking this up long term

Paul

Slooby
25th June 2004, 13:06
Really? Good luck!

David_Wallis
25th June 2004, 13:09
well I for one am out as I would like to get something before ten of the best..

We are on 5 pages and cant get pricing worth shouting about or decide whether its a good or bad idea..

I suggested looking at the spec c optional kit and it was ignored.. Im now going with someone elses advice that has a lot of experience with tuned engines / oil cooolers and subaru engines

I need something before petrol isnt available and clearly with this group buy it just isnt happening.

The words brewery couldnt pissup organise a in a spring to mind.

Paul@Zen
25th June 2004, 13:30
David,

If you can get some miracle pricing on a kit which is always going to contain a lot of reasonably priced parts, please let us know.

If you have a problem with the way this was organised perhaps you could have come up with suggestion, or pointed your learned friend here to come up with something.

As another option, I may just put in a seperate water cooling system and hook it up to the water feeds on the existing donut. No airlock worries, and easy to setup with a 12v water pump and a car heater core.

Paul

David_Wallis
25th June 2004, 13:53
nope.. no miracle prices but everything in here is so slow its going backwards.

MorayMackenzie
25th June 2004, 13:55
David,

Re "I suggested looking at the spec c optional kit and it was ignored.. Im now going with someone elses advice that has a lot of experience with tuned engines / oil cooolers and subaru engines"

Where did you suggest this? If I had seen you suggest this I would have taken notice of it and replied, rather than writing my own post suggesting we look at that design for pointers. smile.gif

Moray

MorayMackenzie
25th June 2004, 13:59
Paul,

The separate water circuit option would loose the accelerated warm up facility, unless the system could be linked to the standard coolant circuit up to a given oil temp. After that, it would still need oil temp based control to prevent overcooling. smile.gif

Moray

David_Wallis
25th June 2004, 14:06
could allways leave the pump switched off until temp is reached.

Paul@Zen
25th June 2004, 14:19
linking it to the main circuit is an option, but a simple thermostatic control of the cooling pump is what I was thinking of

Paul

Adamantium
25th June 2004, 14:21
Paul,.

airlock was jus a worry of mine, it hasn't been confirmed as a problem, in fact stan mentioned that there is always some leak so surely this could solve things.

With regard to pumping past the standard cooler, I think the flow of oil at high speed would mean the space velocity of oil past the donut ring would be too high for it to be efficient at removing the kind of heat we are talking about.

Surely someone like cord with skyline oil cooling experience will know the answers to all of these concerns.

With regard to pricing, I don't think it is going to come down a lot lower, but david is right in that we should get a move on, but with something as major as bearing starvation I don't want to create problems.

I like tim from DTW's idea. fit a manual tap on the cooler take off pipe.

If the weather is hot, open it, if its cold, close it. No thermostats to go wrong, no air locks to worry about as the system can be primed with the tap closed and then opened (with spark plugs removed I might add).

I also like pas idea of a supplementary electric pump to empty/fill the system under pressure without the engine turning a degree.

Paul@Zen
25th June 2004, 14:36
Originally posted by Adam M:



With regard to pumping past the standard cooler, I think the flow of oil at high speed would mean the space velocity of oil past the donut ring would be too high for it to be efficient at removing the kind of heat we are talking about.

If it can nearly keep up with coolant at 90C then I suspect it can keep up with coolant at 40C.

Plenty of available parts to do the water cooling circuit, as they are readily available for computer water cooling systems.

Don't forget we are only looking to drop the oil about 15 on hot days from where it current runs with the standard setup.

Paul

MorayMackenzie
25th June 2004, 16:03
David,

"could allways leave the pump switched off until temp is reached."

If it is not linked to the main circuit then it will not aid warmup. Switching off the pump will merely impede cooling, it will not actively heat the oil, so warm up time will be longer. It would be similar to running a regular external oilcooler without the standard donut exchanger.

BTW, wereabouts did you suggest looking at the spec C oil cooler? I'm still confused as to why I missed that.

Moray

StanS
25th June 2004, 18:42
Slooby - Mocal 16 row X 235mm cooler + thermostat sandwich set at 92C.
Originally had sandwich thermostst set at 80 something C and thought that was why the oil temp would not get up to optimum temp (which I believe is approx 90C, based on how my engine performs against oil temp). There is a selection of temps you can select for the thermostat, but on my engine has little effect. (BTW its a piece of cake changing thermostat sensors, and they are very cheap)
On starting the engine from cold it is not long before the cooler is warm, confirming that there is always some flow to the cooler.
The length of pipe run is a major consideration. I am trying to work out a shorter route so I don't lose the 10 psi @ <4krpm.
Stan

Slooby
25th June 2004, 21:54
Stan, have you removed the 'donut' oil/water cooler?

David_Wallis
26th June 2004, 01:13
moray.. have checked this thread.. must have been another one.. will let you know.. if we can have a group buy by tues I'm in.. more discussions on irrelevant crap then i'll pay extra.

Adamantium
26th June 2004, 09:04
david, don't mean to be rude, but its hardly irrelevant crap.

johnfelstead
27th June 2004, 12:30
:eek: at this thread.

Another option if the oil cooling is marginal, which it will be on most of these engines, is to improve the thermal eficiency of the water cooling system.

Plumb a small radiator in circuit between the outlet of the turbo water pipe and the header tank, that will reduce water temps significantly on full load and give extra cooling to the stock oil cooler as a result.

You should be looking at running the oil 10-15 degrees C hotter than the water temp with a max of 120 degrees on a good oil like Castrol RS 10/60.

If you do need to run an external oil cooler, you are best using a laminar water/oil cooler in place of the stock item on a mainly road used car making sure the water cooling system is capable of handling the extra heat being exchanged. If the car is for pure competition then using an external air/oil cooler is OK if you allow the oil to warm fully. I would avoid an air/oil cooler setup on a car you comute to work in but wouldnt have any problems with a weekend toy where you are disiplined enough to allow the oil to heat fully.

StanS
27th June 2004, 13:00
John - from what you just said it looks like I've got this oil temp thing wrong. What do reckon that optimum oil temp is (I don't yet have a water temp gauge) ?
BTW I'm usin Motul 15W50 300V competition and mine is mainly a road car which may be lightly stressed when oil is 70C and booted when oil >80C, so is my oil too cool ?
Stan

johnfelstead
27th June 2004, 13:10
yes, way too cool. I would sugest you dont give it full boost until the oil is above 80 degrees, preferably 85 degrees. I used to keep the revs below 4000rpm until i saw 80 degrees. I would be looking to run around 100-105 degrees as your ideal oil temp on motul 15/50.

StanS
27th June 2004, 13:40
Thanks John - I noticed it runs better when oil @ 90-95C, don't think its ever got over 100C.
Need to do some rethinking now.
Stan

Paul@Zen
27th June 2004, 16:10
John,

The problem is, when you are running 500hp or so, the water cooling system is marginal at best. SO better system cooling is required before moving to a better oil cooler matrix.

I do like the idea of an extra rad on the turbo return, and it fits nicely in the area of the bonnet scoop.

Paul

johnfelstead
27th June 2004, 16:33
I know Paul. The problem is what is suitable for a 500BHP engine used on a 1/4 mile or top speed run is not nessecceraly suitable for a 300BHP engine used on track or road, you have to spec the cooling systems for the individual aplications, which is why this thread has its nickers well and truly in a twist.

Paul@Zen
27th June 2004, 16:43
John,

Agreed. but if a single solution can be found which is cost effective, it would be good for everyone. New thread required.

Paul

StanS
27th June 2004, 19:05
Sorry - I did not realise this thread was including 500BHP quarter mile drag engines.
I was adding comments on issues I have encountered on my 430BHP engine in the hope that those people who had not fitted a cooler were aware of things to think consider, and in the hope I may get advice from those further down the line than me on how to overcome my issues. smile.gif
Stan.
Editted to add PS - I have made progress in my problems with the oil cooler, thanks to those who have added their experience.

[ 27. June 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: StanS ]

johnfelstead
27th June 2004, 19:14
Stan, the thread is discusing all the various car setups BBS members have, thats the problem, its too many setups with too many difering aplications. When you are doing a group buy you need to define the spec and then get the prices, this thread is messy because the spec required differs so much from car to car.

Some things are not good areas to do a group buy on, oil cooling is one of those unless its for a group of people all with the same specs and usage.

It's much better to get the spec right and pay a few quid extra than try and do a one spec fits all setup that doesnt work perfectly for anyone.

StanS
27th June 2004, 19:27
Yes, and the wonderful thing about the thread is that there are useful snippets to help people forward in deciding how to sort out their cooling problems - regardless of engine output.
It has certainly highlighted things to consider when thinking of fitting a cooler.
I wish it had been started a couple of months ago ! smile.gif
Stan

- but is the drop in oil pressure I have encountered when the cooler in in line typical, or is there a way of overcoming it ?

johnfelstead
27th June 2004, 20:02
if you are concerned about presure drop you should change the spec of the cooler matrix. Using a taller core with more rows will reduce the presure drop, you can keep the same cooling capacity by reducing its width.

As a rule, the more rows the cooler has the lower the presure drop will be, so if packaging allows you should go for as tall a cooler with as narrow a width as you can.

Its common to use 13 or 16 row 235mm wide coolers, this is the wrong aproach if you have presure drop concerns, you should be using a 115mm wide matrix with more rows to provide the cooling capacity.

A 13 row oil cooler will have twice the presure drop of a 50 row oil cooler with the same width so if you halved the width that will make the diference even more significant.

Laminova (water/oil) oil coolers are more eficient in terms of oil presure loss than pressed bar coolers (air/oil).

You can also reduce oil presure drop by using large bore hoses and fittings.

MorayMackenzie
28th June 2004, 10:40
Reducing the number and severity of bends within the pipework will also help reduce pressure drop.

StanS
28th June 2004, 19:33
Cheers John and Moray.
I had sussed the bends and pipe dia and used largest rad swept 90 elbows I could find and only used 4. Stuck with using pipe I had (13mm dia). Didn't realise the configuration of rows/width would have that much effect or I wouldn't have bought the std recommended size - doh !
Still need to reduce the 8 foot (total) pipe run
to cooler as first priority I think. (Looks neat though, with no sharp bends !!)
On the temp side, I am going to fit the bipass pipe/valves so mostly the cooler will be off line.

Again, many thanks for taking the time to add your experience/knowledge. smile.gif
Many other people can use these last posts to help them chose wisely, rather than take the normal recommended "one size suits all" cooler.
Stan

Paul@Zen
28th June 2004, 20:53
hmm, I was budgeting on using 16mm id tube (5/8")

StanS
29th June 2004, 13:20
Cheers Paul,
In which case when I reroute my pipework I'll use 16mm i/dia instead of the 13 i/dia.
Stan.

pat
23rd July 2004, 13:42
Just to add a little more confusion into the thread...

On my 2.5 I was seeing rather high oil temps in slow moving traffic, up to 120 degrees C. If the traffic stopped altogether so it was idling it would hover around 110 degrees. Once it started moving again at some pace it would drop to 100 degrees C, which was also the steady state cruise temp. Putting some load onto the engine (up to 300 BHP) and the temps would immediately rise to about 110, it would probably have gone higher but I didn't want to chance it (remember it will be a lot hotter after it has been through the engine, perhaps to the point of degrading the oil). All measurements were taken off the gallery at the oil pressure switch takeoff point location, so seeing what's going down to the bearings, sump temps would have been higher.

Oil pressure wise I was seeing 7-8 bar throughout the rev range when cold, dropping to 6.5 to 7 bar at higher revs when warm and about 5 to 6 bar when idling warm.

Fitting a 19 row oil cooler with 1/2 BSP fittings and 1/2 inch pipe and my old thermostatic takeoff plate has made a monumental difference to the oil temps, it now doesn't go over 100 degrees C. Ever.

Some might think that the 80 degrees C it runs on cruise is too cold, but my engine prefers it that way. Giving it a bit of load sees it rise to about 85 degrees. In traffic with no airflow to the cooler it rises slowly up to 100 degrees but doesn't go any higher. Slow moving traffic now sees about 90 degrees, once it starts moving again it quickly falls back into the 80s.

Pressure drop wise I did notice that there is a gushing sound of oil flowing emanating from the take-off plate, presumably I should have spent some time with a die grinder "finishing" the plate to aid flow, but this does not appear to have caused a drop in pressure. My pipe run is really quite long, it follows the would-be aircon pipe routing past the passenger headlight to get in front of the FMIC to the cooler located on the driver's side (so any hot air contamination will only impede cooling rather than re-heating already cooled air / water). I'de guesstimate the total run length to be 3 to 4 metres. Was thinking of putting it in the wheel arch, may do if I get a bit of time, but time was one thing I didn't have in any abundance but I did have an abundant need of fitting the cooler ;)

The takeoff plate runs very close to the headers, I noticed this originally with my kit back in 1999 when I first fitted it, even on stock headers it ran close! My solution was to have the first 40cm or so of the pipe as a steel corrugated pipe, which will obviously tolerate massively more temperature than any rubber hose. It then switches to rubber when it's clear of hot exhaust type things. It would be possible to run below the headers but I figured that's inviting disaster. I looked at removing the original cooler to get more space only to find that it then wouldn't clear the cambelt covers.

With the new Subaru micro-filter and the sandwich plate in place, the level of the filter does NOT protrude below the level of the tubular headers (it may hang below the standard ones, I'de need to check). Can't see any additional dangers there.

Not entirely sure what the issue is which some people seem to have with this new filter? It doesn't appear to impede oil flow, there is no appreciable oil pressure drop, and so what if you have to change it more often, for goodness sake, you'll get change from a fiver!

One of the biggest problems with the Subaru engine is the sheer size of the oil galleries, they are absolutely enormous! This in itself would not be an issue if they didn't drain empty when you shut the engine off, but they do. Consequently it takes some time for the oil pump to re-prime the galleries every single time the engine is fired after it has been stood for a while once it has been hot. This problem is increased by the fitment of the oil cooler; it now takes longer to re-prime the galleries with the electric oil pump than it did without the cooler... something to bear in mind.

Perhaps you guys would like to stop bickering, arrange a 16 or 19 row kit and just get on with it? Just be aware that trying to clear the headers without going below them is a bit of a pig.... would be worth a trip to Think to sort out any potential issues like that.

Oh, and for Adam's benefit, the oil flow is as follows.... smile.gif

From the sump it is drawn up the passenger side block half by the oil pump, it goes to the drivers side block half and down to the outer periphery of the standard oil cooler "donut" where it is cooled or heated accordingly. It then enters the takeoff plate where there are two parallel routes, one directly into the filter and one that requires it to go via the cooler and then into the filter. It flows down the outer periphery of the filter into the centre where it then travels up the "hollow post" that secures the original "donut" and the takeoff plate's own securing "hollow post" (boss) into the oil galleries. The oil flow through the cooler is controlled by the thermostat shutting off the direct route to the filter, thus forcing it to go through the cooler.

Hope this helps, and illustrates just how effective the cooler can be.... my engine wasn't ridiculously bad on cruise oil temps, seen other EJ257s running 110 degrees on cruise shooting up over 120 after a short blast... scary stuff! As to water temps and keeping the coolant cool, that's a whole new can of worms, and I could almost write an entire book on that... suffice to say mine now runs VERY significantly cooler than any other EJ257 or 2.33 I've seen..... and that's without fitting a cooler stat :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Pat.

StanS
23rd July 2004, 19:41
Still researching !
Another "fact" I got from reading the Motul interview on www.motorspot.com/motulin.html (http://www.motorspot.com/motulin.html)
when they talk about the 15W50 engine oil is it can take up to 180C running temps (page6-7 on my print out) - if I read it correctly. Also recommended 2k miles oil change in a car which rarely gets up to working temp !
From the spin the Motul guy was giving, I don't think its worth me fitting a cooler !!!
Any comments on the interview "facts" would be appreciated !
Cheers,
Stan

johnfelstead
23rd July 2004, 21:36
being a USA publication the Motul article has its temps in Farenheit . The 180 degrees F is the burn off temp of the water that forms in the crankcase due to condensation.

StanS
24th July 2004, 08:01
Yes John - I realise its USA and in F, and I converted all their F's to C's as I was reading it !!
If you read the the relevant bit that I was talking about which is the answer to the question "What type of motor oil does Motul offer that would be of most interest to us 351-C owners"
and the part of the answer "...The ester has a very high running temperature of 365 degrees (=185C) in the 300V oil..."
Stan

Adamantium
24th July 2004, 09:41
I am with pat on this one.

I am also going to go for the same primer pump idea Anything that might aid longevity is a good thing in my book.

I have the take off plate already,

so

1 19 row oil cooler core
4m rubber hosing minimum -10 fitting
two take offs (which angle?)
? length of steel flexi pipe

no stat for me thanks!

I am up for this right now!

Andy.F
24th July 2004, 09:52
And not surprisingly I'm not :D

Since removing the fmic and various bits and bobs around the engine bay my oil temp has dropped by 12 degrees C :cool: The highest I have seen (no track days yet) is 94C I'd need to see 130+ to even think about another oil cooler.
The surface area of the engine block is probably greater than that of the coolers you are talking about here, getting plenty cool air around it works wonders !

Andy

harvey
24th July 2004, 18:33
This has been discussed for nearly eight weeks now. Another month and ambient temps will start dropping anyway.
How many people see more than 120 deg C, the figure I used near the start of the thread?
How many people have no oil temp. guage? If you do not have one that would be a wise starting point and could well save you money,engine wear and unnecessary concern.
Problems with an oil cooler are low oil temperatures, slow warm up, slow initial pressure build up on every start and reduced oil pressure because of the increased oil tract length.
In my opinion an electric pump is a recipe for disaster.
Just my thoughts which may help anybody that has not thought of all these negatives.

Adamantium
24th July 2004, 22:10
harvey, we are talking about an electric primer pump to pressurise ths system without the engine turning, it offsets you fears about slow initial build up.

The increase in tract length also increases oil capacity as does the cooler, and there is no shortage of pressure in the system, the oil pressure relief valve will still open at the same pressure.

As for oil not being hot enough, I am going to put an inline tap in the system to close off the oil cooler in cold weather.

The electric primer pump will make sure there is no problem ever with trapped air etc and will also help to empty all the oil out of the engine and cooler core when I need to change the stuff.

My only remaining decision is remote filter or not.

Engine builder seems to think yes, for capacity as well as convenience.

[ 26. July 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Adam M ]

187
25th July 2004, 10:13
I am begining to wonder about the apparent benefits of an oil cooler setup. Maybe a big wing sump setup might be a better investment, should see lower temps as each unit of oil is doing less work. Also protection from oil surge which you are not going to get from a cooler.

MorayMackenzie
25th July 2004, 14:58
harvey wrote: "Problems with an oil cooler are low oil temperatures, slow warm up, slow initial pressure build up on every start and reduced oil pressure because of the increased oil tract length.
In my opinion an electric pump is a recipe for disaster."

I believe that Pat's previous post had already addressed all of these points, which are on the most part perfectly valid concerns that should be considered, except, IMHO, for the "electric oil pump being recipe for disaster" issue.

The low oil temperature and slow warm up points can be pretty much sorted out by use of the thermostatic take off head. The standard subaru oil to water heat exchanger is also still in place, so the accelerated warm up feature will still be there, and the external oil cooler will not be cooling until it's thermostat opens. The thermostatic valves are exchangeable for different temperature settings, so you can tune the general oil temperatures to an extent.

The slow initial oil pressure build up point is not relevant when the cooler has a companion oil priming system, such as in Pat's setup. Pat's car tends to get up to 4bar cold or 2bar warm oil pressure _before_ even starting to crank the engine. This has to be considerably better in terms of engine wear and longevity than the oil pressure and flow characteristics expirienced by a standard ej20 during startup.

With regards to the oil pressure drop issue, Pat mentions that, although he heard noise from one part of the system that suggests he could have improved flow with a little work, he has observed no change in the running oil pressure since fitting the cooler system.

The flip side of the extra volume within the oil system is that there is also extra oil capacity within the system, (Pat guestimates about half a litre more in hos setup, which is roughly 10% more capacity), and the extra oil capacity means that each unit of oil will have less work to do, assuming all other variables are fixed. This, coupled with better temperature control (again, this can be tuned with changes of thermostat valve), should help the oil to do its job more effectively.

The fact that harvey has raised this "recipie for disaster" point suggests to me that harvey does not quite understand how the priming system works. Maybe harvey could explain how the workings of the priming system are likely to cause a disaster?

All of the other, perfectly valid concerns, seem to have been addressed within Pat's setup. Of course, this setup incorporates an oil cooler system and an oil priming system in order to address all the issues. As such, it will not be a cheap solution.

As to wether it is worth the expense in terms of increased engine longevity and reliablilty due to reduced wear and stress on the components, that, I suspect, is the sort of thing that becomes more a matter of personal opinions and goals/expectations. smile.gif

Moray

Andy.F
25th July 2004, 16:56
Originally posted by pat:
it takes some time for the oil pump to re-prime the galleries every single time the engine is fired after it has been stood for a while once it has been hot. This problem is increased by the fitment of the oil cooler; it now takes longer to re-prime the galleries with the electric oil pump than it did without the cooler... something to bear in mind.

Cheers,

Pat. I don't quite understand this :confused: If the system is properly designed then the oil will not drain from the cooler and hence the priming time will not alter.

Andy

StanS
25th July 2004, 18:12
Moray - The thermostat is always open slightly, but opens more as the temp increases. This means that even with the original water/oil heat exchanger in place the oil still takes longer to reach sensible temps and still runs cooler than without the cooler.
The oil pressure on start up took a small fraction of a second to reach usual start up values.

Andy - the only way the oil will not drain from the cooler is if it is lower than the take off on the filter - which may be difficult to arrange. The feed pipes which are lower than cooler will stay full of oil and so reduce the time to fill the cooler.
Stan

Paul@Zen
25th July 2004, 19:52
Stan,

Oil wouldn't drain from cooler unless there sufficient scope for air to replace the draining oil, this may or may no happen, but I doubt it.

Paul

Simon_
26th July 2004, 07:33
Pat was talking about priming the galleries not refilling the cooler.

Adamantium
26th July 2004, 08:01
To be fair, does it really matter what happens if the primer pump is there?

Can I stress that dave wild and his engine builder Tim, specifically said both in writing and in person, that it was a bad idea to fit a thermostatic take off plate in the oil system.

They said if over cooling is an issue than fit an in line tap, which does not let anything through when it is closed off.

I think this is probably the safest option, and the route I will be going for.

I don't see why pressure will be affected since this is determined by the oil pressure relief valve spring. Surely that is the only limitng factor, as the engine unchecked would generate far more oil pressure than it does. :confused:

Either way, I think the group buy isn't going to happen, so I will be ordering the parts myself.

Simon_
26th July 2004, 08:06
Adam,

So you are looking at no thermostate and a tap?

So in the summer the warm up would be longer??

Simon

Adamantium
26th July 2004, 09:01
I guess it would, but the water/oil cooler will still be there, as would the primer pump.

Dave wild runs with an oil cooler all year round and isn't concerned about that.

I have to say that neither his nor tim's(engine builder) advice has ever let me down.

The written instructions for installation and maintenance of the engine go in to some detail about not using a thermostat.

David_Wallis
26th July 2004, 09:40
Could you find out why?

Adamantium
26th July 2004, 10:11
I will post again tonight when I have have the written explanation in front of me, but from memory, the concern was that the fate of the engine and its health is dependent on the quality of the oil, its temperature, its pressure and consistency of supply.

Therefore anything in the oil pathway has to be incredibly scrutinsed. In the systems we are talking about, the only thing which is open to mechanical failure which may have questionable reliability is the stat. I know the water temp ones in the rad are prone to sticking, so I am assuming this is their concern.

I did argue with Tim that many people use them to good effect and the worst danger is if it sticks open or sticks closed, either way if you monitor the oil temps you are going to notice.

He still felt that since the oil is the life of the engine, the oil system complexity should be reduced at all costs, and that means no moving parts I guess.

I think it is splitting hairs to worry at this level, but they (Tim specifically) haven't seen me wrong in any other advice.

When they received the engine from bill gwynnes, everything they said that would be an issue became an issue and everything they said they could take care of performed beautifully.

With this in mind, I am not going to question this one, am just going to listen. Just the KISS principle really.

[ 26. July 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Adam M ]

David_Wallis
26th July 2004, 10:28
Thanks smile.gif

Race Altered
21st April 2005, 18:35
Did anyone get round to buying a cooler at that time ?

Any pictures of the fitment and spec ?

Cheers smile.gif

Steven
21st April 2005, 19:32
Your having a laugh :D

Trying to organise a group buy on here is a mission and a half.

Race Altered
21st April 2005, 19:38
Cheers Steven, Didnt know that :D

Did a search on here and google cant find anything showing pictures of a cooler fitted on any Impreza's...I suppose close up of the one on a Spec C would even be a start smile.gif

Looking into one myself and curious what others use size etc and where its positioned.

Maybe I should start another thread show me your cooler ?

Steven
21st April 2005, 19:49
One here yesterday. Although i am convinced mine is going in the wheel arch, either on the drivers side or passenger side, and will be relatively small.

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=420764

Cord
22nd April 2005, 07:04
Sold and fitted a few kits.
A fairly small cooler fits behind the upper grill (classic) quite well. Even tho the cooler is quite small it works fine due to getting a really good un-interupted airflow.

Race Altered
22nd April 2005, 07:13
Thanks Steven.

Cord any pics by chance ?

Cheers.

Cord
22nd April 2005, 08:58
If you wait till next week.

Race Altered
22nd April 2005, 16:58
Originally posted by Cord:
If you wait till next week. That would be great thanks smile.gif

p1prodrive
25th April 2005, 09:50
i had one from demon tweeks on my last car that was a "mocal" one.....good quality and you can get universal rads to cater to where you want them fitted.

hope this helps lads