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Jolly Green Monster
24th October 2003, 20:06
Got around to finishing off my FMIC pipework today which I am not 100% happy with yet but it is on.. and it may well be my sh1te pipework that is the problem.

I think the turbo to intercooler diameter is too large and I have some slightly smaller to try but I fancied trying the 70mm after reading an article on Auto speed.. anyway.. all runs and drives great.. intake temps are much much lower.. and car pulls the same if not slightly better, difficult to tell before I take it on a long drive... no knock on knock link and AFR is correct.. no huge increase in lag surprisingly..

only problem is the tickover..
When cold it is fine, but once the car is warmed up it jumps between 0rpm and 1200rpm and eventually either stalls or settles out to 800rpm like normal... the AFR is a lot richer on tickover.. was Red on Dawes or flashing red and now it is Green.. so a fair bit richer (wish I could remember what they equated too.. cos green don;t help much).

I have fitted a Forge Dumpvalve recirculate one but I have run out of circlips so haven't connect the recircular in yet.. it is running a blue shim / spring..

Part of me is temped to stick the standard intercooler back on until I am remap ready but I was hoping the standard ecu would be up to running with this..

I am hoping it is the dump valve?

I have checked I haven't managed to disconnect the Lambda or MAF, but perhaps I have disturbed something.. thinking about it I must check I haven't trapped a pipe somewhere..

Any thoughts gratefully received...

Cheers

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
24th October 2003, 20:37
I suppose a picture of my pipework for people to laugh at might be in order..

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1517093&outx=600&oq=0

Intercooler and uprated Rad supplied by Mark @ Lateral Performance

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1517090&outx=600&oq=0

Gone Large...

Simon

[This message has been edited by Jolly Green Monster (edited 24 October 2003).]

Jolly Green Monster
24th October 2003, 20:57
I know I am now talking to myself..

I think the problem must be that I am squashing a pipe where the red circle is below..

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1517212&outx=600&oq=0

If I buy a 45 degree samco and change pipework as in white I should releave some of the pressure on the pipes and removed the very slight kink in the 90deg bend onto the inlet manifold..

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
24th October 2003, 21:33
I am still talking to myself..

just been and had a look and the pipe from what I believe is the idle controller?
above the boost controller on the suspension turret.. anyway pipe from that was crushed under the intake pipe.. fairly sure.. but cannot test it as too late in the evening to start the car..
Test it in the morning..

Before I relocated oil filler and did pipework
http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1517561&outx=600&oq=0

Cheers
Simon

Edited as my hand to eye co-ordination is going this evening..

[This message has been edited by Jolly Green Monster (edited 24 October 2003).]

Jolly Green Monster
25th October 2003, 19:50
Replaced the 70mm pipe on the turbo to intercooler today.. with a 63mm pipe..

Haven't had time to drive it as doing plumbing in the house too..

Hoping I have solved it.. but suspect I need a remap.. so if still playing up tommorrow then back with the TMIC again until 550s arrive in the post plus converters then sort a map etc..

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif
Simon

P20SPD
25th October 2003, 20:52
Looks good Simon. Be careful with the pipes near the boost solenoid.

Steven

Jolly Green Monster
25th October 2003, 21:16
Thanks Steven,

I have re-routed a couple of the pipes near the boost solenoid today..

Hopefully once it is all together I will be happy but at the moment I am a bit p1ssed off with it really...

Too much work and not enough reward so far
http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
26th October 2003, 20:03
it was the DV!! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

The vacum line was pulling the DV fully open on tickover..

Ran it today with no DV (nice wastegate chatter).. did 90miles into London and back.. cruising at 85mph saw intake temps or 1.5deg C less than ambient which was 13 at the time... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Most increase in intake over ambient I saw was 5 deg C!!

Managed to persuade the standard DV to fit this evening until I have sorted a stronger spring for the Forge.

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
27th October 2003, 13:28
Standard dump valve is better but tickover still hunts a little..

Have just ordered a Forge DV tuning kit with all the springs and shims in from Forge so hope I can sort it out with that http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

David_Wallis
27th October 2003, 16:36
your not kidding that pipework needs help!

Jolly Green Monster
27th October 2003, 20:54
..and I was just starting to like it..

Oh well..

suggestions by email would be appreciated me Wallis.. or on here in fact..

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
28th October 2003, 09:05
I have replaced the right hand pipe which can been seen as 70mm black with 63mm now.

The bit at the back passing over the turbo is metal with samco over the top as I had some spare and thought the insulation over the turbo might be a good idea.

It will do until the manifold is front entried..

Simon

David_Wallis
28th October 2003, 19:19
front entry..

Jolly Green Monster
29th October 2003, 08:30
Was one of the disadvantages of taking a job back home.. I cannot visit the Wallis garage so frequently http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

But I would have ended up divorced or a widow had I not spent more time at home http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

David_Wallis
29th October 2003, 13:48
Always knew she wore the trousers.

Adam M
29th October 2003, 14:47
you would have ended up a widow?

some strange suidide combined with enforced sex change operation ritual?

Jolly Green Monster
29th October 2003, 14:50
LOL..

doh..

I meant I would have murdered her.. (only joking)

After two years living apart in the week the weekends were becoming rather.. cannot think of the word... sh1te.. to say the least..

Things sorted now I am back home..

I am sure I didn't really want to discuss this on here but what the hell..

Simon

Fuzz
29th October 2003, 17:47
What you mean is, you're making up for lost time! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy

edit grammar

[This message has been edited by Fuzz (edited 29 October 2003).]

Adam M
29th October 2003, 18:21
simon,

forgot to say intercooler does look great.

Pipework could do with a lot of tidying but the temperatures you have seen seem to be very impressive.

Jolly Green Monster
29th October 2003, 23:16
Fuzz,

no comment http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Adam,

I was egar to get the pipework done so I could run on the intercooler.. drove around with two intercoolers in the car for a week which was agonising..
It will get tidied.. temps are still impressive, and dump valve still needs sorting. Have ordered the tuning kit from Forge but now in a postal strike which is not good timing. So no dump valve it is for a bit.
Finish on the intercooler and rad are very impressive.. rad temps are very similar to standard rad too.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

Richard.D
30th October 2003, 06:17
Do you have details on the water temp differences? And are you running the same boost as before, or higher boost now because of improved intercooling?

Thanks, Richard

Tone Loc
30th October 2003, 07:57
Simon,

Where did this intercooler/rad design come from.... did you spec it up and Mark got it made up or did Mark spec it? Looks very good, how much is it btw http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif ?

Tony.

Jolly Green Monster
30th October 2003, 08:35
Before the new intercooler and Rad I was seeing 86 to 92 degrees coolant temp..
I am now seeing 88 to 90 with the occassional 91/92.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

I was running around on my standard map as I was not happy that the TMIC was working efficently anymore so running 0.75bar.. now running the ScoobyECU map at about 1bar..
So boost is slightly higher.

Was watching intake temps more detailed this morning and ambient was around 5.9 to 6.5 degrees and intake was at 9degrees on WOT..
slow down a bit and therefore the throttle is not open so wide and the intake manifold heats the intake air up a bit and I was seeing 12 - 14degrees.. stop at a junction and the intake manifold was heating the intake temp to around 22degs (am sure it would go higher if I say there for longer) but as soon as you pulled off it drops to 15 then creaps back down to 9degrees..
(Thanks Floyd for the temp gauge mate!)

I was seeing 30+ degrees intake temp at best with TMIC..

Running with no leaking dump valve this morning (no dump valve at all) and running 1bar the knock link was totally silent.. the noise from 4500rpm to the redline has gone?!

Mark specc'ed it and I made a small change..
I wanted to be able to run it either direction so end tanks were made identical on either side.

Speak to Mark if you want a price or want to know what can be done with the spec etc..
I have erased the price from my memory in case the wife asks.. I just remember it was very good.

Cheers

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
30th October 2003, 09:06
Re-thinking the knock slightly..

I also re-routed the vacuum line for the boost gauge, off of the FPR line and onto the now vacant dump valve line.. so this has probably sorted the knock out.. as the boost gauge needle is now solid and no flicker too..

Doh..

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
30th October 2003, 19:03
Made some changes tonight in the rain..

Moved the coolant header tank out the way and took a more direct route with the pipe.

Also 65mm turbo side pipe shortened slightly.

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1568373&outx=600&oq=0

Getting there slowly.

Simon http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Jolly Green Monster
31st October 2003, 07:14
Annoyingly in the pic it looks like I can shorten the right hand pipe further but in reality it is as about as short as it can go.

Intake temps are up 3-4degrees this morning after that pipe change..
Less insulation passing over the Turbo and coolant header tank us touching the pipe the cause I suspect.. Insulation at the ready for the summer http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Chuckster
31st October 2003, 08:26
Very impressive. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Is that can of John Smiths full? Need any help with it?
One day I'll do something with my car.
Cman

Jolly Green Monster
31st October 2003, 08:34
Yes the John Smiths can was full when the picture was taken LOL..

I think it is still full in the cupboard..

If you have managed to not Mod the 22b that much Chuck then probably best to avoid it..
gets rather addictive, bit like Alcohol..

LOL..

Simon

Jolly Green Monster
2nd November 2003, 20:43
More pipe changes this weekend.. including a top coolant hose splitting on me!

Time for a samco coolant set I think.

Intercooler pipework is looking better slowly. I think so anyway

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1595463&outx=600&oq=0

Simon http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Jolly Green Monster
10th November 2003, 10:17
Pipe work pretty much complete, for this stage anyway.. and an engine bay clean..

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1672097&outx=600&oq=0

Constructive critism please?

Expecting the bottle piss take http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

[This message has been edited by Jolly Green Monster (edited 10 November 2003).]

Jolly Green Monster
10th November 2003, 21:46
BTW..

The bulges on the samco pipes on the right are because they are a 50 to 70mm converter and a 70mm straight bit of samco connected to a 63mm bit of metal pipe! doh..

Think I might try the original 70mm bit of pipe seeing as it now goes like sh1t off a shovel and has all my low rpm torque back with avengence.. so I would get a good comparison with the 70mm switch..
If 63mm is better then I can trim the samco http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

JGM http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

tweenierob
11th November 2003, 10:28
Constructive...... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Personally i would double up the jubilee clips on the hoses that are too big, i had exactly the same thing with my hoses and one of them blew off in the end.
I know it will mean more xpenditure and maybe not loads of improvement but, where the boost pipe comes from the IC to the manifold it might be worth fitting two 45degree samco's instead of having the 90 degr there, for flow....

Is looking very good mate, must be the shortest run possible without going reversed manifold.. Quality mate!!

Rob

http://www.tweenierob.co.uk/uploads/intercooler13.jpg



[This message has been edited by tweenierob (edited 11 November 2003).]

Jolly Green Monster
11th November 2003, 10:37
Rob,

Thanks mate..

Good point re-the extra clamps.. I will order some as spares and to double up when I order my next lot of oil next month, or before hand, no point paying postage on a few clips... currently no huge problem as only running 1bar max.. may well borrow my in-laws welder and put a bead of weld around the pipes so as to help them stay clamped too.

As to the 45degree bends.. you could well be right.. might consider it at some point..

Would ideally like to replace the steel pipe with ally.. but then if I am going to that much trouble I may as well reverse the manifold.. lol..

The 90degree bends were bought in the first place for ease really to get the intercooler piped and running..

I am pretty happy with how the car drives now which is very similar off boost to standard and more go on boost..

Roll on the Link http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

AndrewC
11th November 2003, 11:53
Surely 2 45s add upto 1 90 if they are the same diameter and radius? Infact, given that you will be introducing more joins and therefore adding more turbulence you could end up worse off.

Not speaking from experience just what I have read.

Andrew...

Jolly Green Monster
11th November 2003, 12:02
Andrew,

You just reminded me of the discussion I had with my local plumbing place regarding boiler chimneys.. and he too was counting number of bends in the chimney and said that for every 90degree bend I need to take 1metre off the chimney height the boiler will work with, and that two 45degree angles are equivelent to one 90 etc..

That has no real worry with joins as they were smooth..

All gas / air flow I guess..

I suppose I am not going to get better throttle response than the standard TMIC due to pipe length with that.. and I am current no noticing any worse throttle response..

Turbulance I have not considered much yet..
I have smoothed the joins as best I can..
I know turbulance within the intercooler can help cooling.. but obviously probably not a good thing between intercooler and inlet manifold.

Thanks for the thoughts guys..

Simon

Richard.D
12th November 2003, 08:13
I'd suggest the improvements in flow from 2 45 degree bends will outweight the negatives of the additional joins.

Imagine you're driving a car; can you go faster through a single 90 degree bend or 2 spaced 45 degree ones? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Richard

Jolly Green Monster
12th November 2003, 08:32
That is a reasonable way of looking at it Richard, except that the air cannot fall off the pipe it is running through.. no need to worry about grip either..

Difficult call really.. but for the moment I have spent enough money on pipework..
I think..

Simon

Tone Loc
12th November 2003, 08:33
I'd say definately stick with the one 90 deg. Even if you ignore the extra metal coupling to join the two 45 degs which will hurt flow the single 90 deg would give less pressure drop.

Pressure drop (Pa) through circular ducts is given by velocity2 x 0.6 x k factor. The k factor for a 90 deg bend (r/d = 0.75) is 0.42, for the 45 deg it's 0.252. So overall for one 90 deg the pressure drop is 0.252v2 and for the two 45s it's 0.3v2.

Hope i've remebered the formula correctly but the K factors are correct (i think http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif )

Tony.

Jolly Green Monster
12th November 2003, 08:42
Tony,

This is something I have never looked into before but that makes sense..

How is your Link going??

Simon

Tone Loc
12th November 2003, 08:46
It's going ok, staring, cruise and idle im really happy with but i want to wait for the wideband before i really get into the mapping in the boost areas. Slowed down a bit recently because i've put XP on the Laptop and still haven't put the usbLink software back on (as well as a shit load of other software), getting lazy now it's dark before i get home from work http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif .

Tony.

Tone Loc
12th November 2003, 08:47
P.s i'll send you a copy of my current map when i get the laptop back up and running properly.

Tony.

Jolly Green Monster
12th November 2003, 08:57
Okay cheers Tony,

Guess I should think about a wide band too..

Although to be honest I am wondering about getting the car mapped.. what with the strange lambda and stuff I am thinking it might be nice to actually get in and just turn the key and watch a few gauges for a change.. I seem to spend more time under the bonnet than driving it at the moment and I do 60miles a day.

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Simon

Pblamire
12th November 2003, 21:33
If you're going to compare samco 90 and 45 bends, check the bend rad, as the 45s looked like a larger bend rad.

Some of the samco 90 bends that wallis had were very tight indeed, almost completely sharp.

The best way IMHO would be to get some alloy bends from Pace products, and get them wwelded to straight alloy pipes. In fact, Pace can make the pipes up for you if you specify a drawing, including flaring the ends of the pipe.

In 2.5" and smaller you will get something approaching an acceptable bend from a mandrel bender, so stainless could be an option, but it's quite heavy.

You can buy very nice stainless bends from RS components, about 15 for a 2.5" bend I think.

All in all you're going to get better flow if you can have seemless joins, and fewer of them.

Paul

Tone Loc
12th November 2003, 21:52
Agree with Paul, the bend radius has a huge effect. Much better to have more of a hard pipe kit with less joins, very much like the pipes for the Pace FMIC. Demon tweeks also do a fairly good range of metal mandrel bends (for exhausts). From memory they aren't that expensive.

Tony.

Jolly Green Monster
13th November 2003, 08:36
Before I started all this I actually ran PACE and asked how much for there pipework that comes with there FMIC.. as it is fairly similar... although I would have to adapt it slightly.. they treated me as if I had asked them to do something difficult..

Oh I dunno never sold pipes on there own..
Errrmmm errrr.. I'll call you back..
Couple of days later I chased them..

250+VAT being the price they wanted..
It has cost me less than that so far and I have lots of spare pipes to play with..

I didn't intend this being the finished pipework as I still want to go front entry on both the turbo and a inlet manifold..
but who knows when that will be.

A could of 45degree bends might be tried for experimentation..

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers

Simon