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ChristianR
2nd June 2003, 01:05
The lastest addition to the beast!

I found my HKS Racing Suction kit limiting the amount of air I could get, so it was time for it to be changed!

After searching everywhere, Mark from Lateral Performance (www.LateralPerformance.co.uk (http://www.LateralPerformance.co.uk)) came up with the goods! All I can say about his system is WOW!! I have not had a remap yet, but it is already pulling much harder than the HKS system.

http://www.CICarScene.com/SubaruHistory/pictures/cr-newinduction1.jpg

http://www.CICarScene.com/SubaruHistory/pictures/cr-newinduction2.jpg

http://www.CICarScene.com/SubaruHistory/pictures/cr-newinduction3.jpg

As you can see, it is massive!! It is a bit of a tight squeeze with the PACE FMIC, but as I am changing that shortly, I do not care http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

I do not believe it would be as tight with another make of fmic. i.e. hks, aps.

ChristianR
2nd June 2003, 07:31
And I fitted it myself !

David_Wallis
2nd June 2003, 09:29
You think thats big??

You should see mine http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif (air filter that is..)

Can I post pics Mark?

ChristianR
2nd June 2003, 21:26
bigger than the hks, so yep it is big!!

Bob Rawle
2nd June 2003, 22:12
Thats not the biggest I've seen though, have to say these K & N based filter kits are becoming very popular.

MorayMackenzie
3rd June 2003, 09:33
Surely Christian doesn't really need a huge ugly cone filter for his modest power targets? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Bob Rawle
3rd June 2003, 17:30
Future proofing possibly Moray ? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

MorayMackenzie
3rd June 2003, 19:52
LOL! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Guess so! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

ChristianR
3rd June 2003, 23:03
Once the FMIC has changed (due to bobs advice regarding the pace is at its limit with the power I have) nothing else will change on the car.

The car is pulling so much better with this induction kit, cant wait to get the fmic fitted and then the remap.

john banks
4th June 2003, 12:01
Looks good http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Would it fit with the ABS unit?

P20SPD
4th June 2003, 13:17
John i have one which is a little smaller than Christians filter, but same principles, will attach to the mrt inlet, which you have?, and also fits under the APS intercooler pipework.

Steven

ChristianR
9th June 2003, 18:28
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Rawle:
Thats not the biggest I've seen though, have to say these K & N based filter kits are becoming very popular.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you talking about harveys? if so, going by the size he said in the latest issue of banzai, mine is larger.

Bob Rawle
9th June 2003, 18:43
Lol Christian, you'll have to ask him.

ChristianR
9th June 2003, 18:56
it is ok bob, I am not bothered http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

harvey
11th June 2003, 10:35
Er Christian: What counts is the filtration surface area and the rated cfm.
Mine is bigger than yours!!!
Anyway I have recently been told mine is a big one which has increased my ardour and that has nothing to do with filters!!!

I look forward to some genuine rolling road results after your next mapping sesion.
Will your 2.5litre have 440bhp yet?

Adam M
11th June 2003, 11:13
"genuine rolling road" - oxymoron methinks.

Jolly Green Monster 2
11th June 2003, 11:27
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>nothing else will change on the car.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Until something else bigger and better comes on the market?? you can only have "The Best &lt;insert product here&gt; in the World" until someone brings out a better one?!

Tongue in cheek!

ChristianR
11th June 2003, 13:39
harvey, as I wrote above, I am not bothered, and thought that was the end of this topic.

Anyway...my 2.5litre has over 440bhp already, and I wont even mention about torque! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

harvey
11th June 2003, 18:57
Christian:How did you get on at your track day in France?

So tell us about your torque and BHP figures and where you had your most recent rolling road.

David_Wallis
12th June 2003, 00:03
Girls...Girls Girls..

I HAVE A BIGGER ONE...

K&N Dont do a bigger filter than the one I have.. we tried and we failed, isnt that right steven?..

At the end of the day, keep your arguments between yourselves and then concentrate on playing catch up... christian.. think you may need to add a hundred or two to those figures..

Boys.. Oops.. Girls http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

David.
Low Powered UK 94.. Not run in.


[This message has been edited by David_Wallis (edited 12 June 2003).]

ChristianR
12th June 2003, 07:21
harvey&gt; track day was excellent thanks. It was good to see how the car went on a track - was a lot of fun! Towards the end of the day however, the exhaust gasget went inbetween the exhaust manifold and the up-pipe. Still kept on going though, and I did seem to be going faster due to the fact that I was getting to grips with the track better. We were basically on for 10minutes off for 20minutes, and then back on again. 6 cars in each group, and we had the whole track to ourselves for the entire day!

With the gasket gone, I was only peaking at 1.5bar, and you could hear lots of exhaust gases escaping when driving - was quite a performance hit. This was a pity, as I had the sprints the next day back in Jersey.

Sprints is 440m with a slight bend in the middle, on a normal road down in st.ouens.

I still went ahead and took part - since I had already paid for to be insured. I broke a second off the record in my class. Recorded 12.74 at 110mph with a broken exhaust gasget and peaking at only 1.5bar.

Looking forward to doing it again (sometime in October), as I will break the record again, as I have had the exhaust gasket fixed now.

David&gt; Bring your wagon to Jersey - and then you will all see how crap it will be for life in Jersey!!


[This message has been edited by ChristianR (edited 12 June 2003).]

dc911
12th June 2003, 10:57
How much power and torque?
What rolling road was it on and at what revs?

MorayMackenzie
12th June 2003, 14:04
Christian,

"Anyway...my 2.5litre has over 440bhp already, and I wont even mention about torque! "

Okay, being that you did mention it anyway, what are these figures and where did you get them?

I would ask if you had a dyno plot of the run you are aluding to, however I know you are a dab hand with photoshop.

Anyways, how about telling us the figures and where your car acheived them rather than ignoring the question?

Moray

MorayMackenzie
12th June 2003, 14:43
You "cannot" publish the figures online?

Why not? Insurance? Mafia connections? NDA?

You have made a number of claims about this car in the past, but you "cannot" post any real figures for it?

MorayMackenzie
12th June 2003, 15:22
I would like to point out that I wrote my last post in reply to a post from Christian that has since disappeared.

ChristianR
12th June 2003, 16:10
I have already posted the figures previousily of it running 1.2 and 1.4 bar.

Jolly Green Monster 2
12th June 2003, 21:55
If you can post those figures why can you not post the 1.5 figures and graph?

Or what ever boost it is running?

Really do not understand why you are boasting about figures and producing no proof??

If it was some secret mods to help out at TOTB for example then why mention them???

Confused

Andy.F
12th June 2003, 22:05
12.74 seconds to reach 110 mph equates to approx 330 bhp on a classic Impreza, I think thats very close to Jerry's (S.A.M.) times ?



[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 12 June 2003).]

Jolly Green Monster 2
12th June 2003, 22:25
LOL..

Andy.F,

Was thinking this the other day.. have you 1/4miled your car??

Was reading the thread about the Escort Cos on Scoobynet and wondered how your car compared.. being the highest BHP I could think of at the time..

JGM

ChristianR
12th June 2003, 22:37
Andy - I knew someone would come back like that. I will paste what I wrote above, lets see if you can READ it this time.

Sprints is 440m with a slight bend in the middle, on a normal road down in st.ouens.

Now was Jerrys run like that, or even the run you did? Ahh no it wasn't now was it - I believe you have a completely straight bit of race track. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I also believe neither of you were running with a blown exhaust gasket, which was degrading performance.

My blitz power meter id has recorded myself doing several 1/4 runs of 12.2, and recently a 11.8. I am looking forward to see what I get when I have changed the fmic, and get my next remap - should be even lower.

SecretAgentMan
13th June 2003, 08:38
oi

Leave me outta this willy-measuring-contest.
My 402 metre straight had no chicane. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Btw - if I could launch my car I'd expect middle 12's now.

Crap.

/J

MorayMackenzie
13th June 2003, 09:45
"Anyway...my 2.5litre has over 440bhp already, and I wont even mention about torque!"

"I have already posted the figures previousily of it running 1.2 and 1.4 bar."
So Christian,

So, can we assume that you are running "over 440bhp" from 1.4bar then? If so, thats pretty impressive stuff. If not, then why are you boasting but not providing any proven figures?

[This message has been edited by MorayMackenzie (edited 13 June 2003).]

ChristianR
13th June 2003, 10:12
Moray, it has been estimated that I have over 460bhp by various people. It is also shown on my blitz power meter id that I have over that. So yes it is proven.

But if you still cant accept that, and if you are willing to pay for me to come over and get it dynoed on a dyno you think is "acceptable" by all means make it happen.

[This message has been edited by ChristianR (edited 13 June 2003).]

T-uk
13th June 2003, 10:52
I would have though that TOTB would be the best day for all this type of debate to end.

dynos days are a good laugh but the peak figures only give a small indication to a cars true performance.

MorayMackenzie
13th June 2003, 12:40
"Moray, it has been estimated that I have over 460bhp by various people. It is also shown on my blitz power meter id that I have over that. So yes it is proven."

Several estimates and a blitz gadget estimation count as proof? LOL.

Frankly, it doesn't bother me how much power and torque you have, and I am sure that you have impressive quantities of each, that is not my point. My point is that you keep posting boasts about your power output based on estimates and gtech type thingies, which you are comparing to figures that others have obtained at rolling roads.

At least we can get a reasonable relative comparison of cars that have been rolling roaded at the same place in similar conditions.

I understand the cost issues you have with getting it rolling roaded, but I would prefer that you make it clear where the figures you do quote are derived from when you do quote them, just so people can take them in the right context.

If your Blitz-ID meter says you have 485.236bhp then why not tell us that your Blitz ID meter estimates your power to be that figure, and tell us what parameters you have entered into the unit before taking the reading?

[This message has been edited by MorayMackenzie (edited 13 June 2003).]

Lateral Performance Ltd
13th June 2003, 12:56
John (T-uk)

I guess TOTB will give us a much better idea of each cars power, based on the trap speeds, however, "times" will be distorted by the abilities of the driver, the way the car has been set up, and the PTWR.

There we go, plenty of excuses for everyone http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mark.

dc911
13th June 2003, 13:41
"it has been estimated that I have over 460bhp by various people. It is also shown on my blitz power meter id that I have over that. So yes it is proven."

Sorry Christian but what a pile of crap that is!!!

Does that mean that because i took my mate from the pub in my car and he said it had at least a 1000bhp that its true?

Adam M
13th June 2003, 14:19
yes darren it does,

congrats on your power output, it must be the most powerful car on british roads!

Pblamire
13th June 2003, 14:27
I find it rather odd that the people (ie Moray) that have been asking so insistantly that Christian "prooooooove" his power claims, know exactly what his RR results are.

I thought we had got past this stage?

Moray, have you lowered yourself to the ranks of the Max Power nova drivers that frequent scabynet?

I also find it strange that everyone applauds results from Andy Forrest's AP22, but Christians "gadget" is somehow not an "approved" bragging device.

For the record, I don't think Christians car is getting the power it's capable of. Whether that is down to the heads, cams, motor, turbo, exhaust or what ever I don't know. But given Christians position (ie somewhere in Jersey most of the time) it's not easy to suggest any solutions.

I'm not sure while the "enlightened" people of this and any other board feel it's acceptable for Christian to be the butt of everyones jokes about power. By his own admission Christian doesn't know much about cars, let alone the ins and outs of his own. SO he relies on people like use, and outfits like BRD and Lateral Performace to advise him.

I could understand it if Christian was a newbie here, but everyone here knows the history of his car.

Maybe we can find a school with a playground that will take some of you children so you can bully each other to your hearts content.

Paul

David_Wallis
13th June 2003, 14:33
Nice reply paul..

I have seen / held a print out of christians car on a rolling road and iirc it was well over 430.. so I dont see why it shouldnt be 460+

Maybe you should have bought a house in the uk christian?

David

ChristianR
13th June 2003, 14:50
I believe it just all boils down to the green eyed monster.

Paul &gt; nice reply http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

David &gt; no chance - the island you live on is way too big for me!!!



[This message has been edited by ChristianR (edited 13 June 2003).]

Lateral Performance Ltd
13th June 2003, 14:58
Paul,

Didn't you know that power meters only work in Scotland, so only those figures are legitimate http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I'm sure if Christian did a trip to Scotland, and borrowed Andy F's AP22, the figures would be acceptable. Unless of course they didn't match Stars RR, n which case, the RR would have to be re-calibrated http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Mark.

Adam M
13th June 2003, 15:22
Paul,

no idea why moray is attacking so hard, but christian is a great target for p1ss taking.

I owe him for implying that I liked neons on cars, plus he accused me of e-schizophrenia or should that be e multiple personality disorder, either way I don't care.

I do though! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 15 June 2003).]

Mr J
13th June 2003, 15:30
I think it's the neon things on Christian car that does.it ... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Jan

Andy.F
13th June 2003, 16:28
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also find it strange that everyone applauds results from Andy Forrest's AP22<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Eh ? When was the last time I mentioned an AP22 result from my car ? Not since last year me thinks ?
Star Performance and Well Lane rolling roads are where my pub/scoobynet S I Z E comparisons have come from this year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

David_Wallis
13th June 2003, 17:04
LOL @ Andy..

Pblamire
13th June 2003, 17:50
Andy,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I mentioned an AP22 result from my car<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not the only one that can take things out of context.

Paul

Andy.F
13th June 2003, 18:10
It wasn't intended to be out of context ?
Here's the paragraph
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also find it strange that everyone applauds results from Andy Forrest's AP22, but Christians "gadget" is somehow not an "approved" bragging device.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must have a poor memory Paul http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif The 'stick' I used to get for originally posting AP22 results ! Nobody ever believed them AFAIK. "350 bhp on 380cc injectors" PMSL !! (ring any bells ? )
Only after they were backed up with 1/4 mile times and two different rolling roads was there any credence in the results. Even then the rolling roads and drag strip came in for ridicule !

I think it's only 'tradition' that Christian is treated in this way http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy.F
13th June 2003, 18:21
On a roll now http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm sure if Christian did a trip to Scotland, and borrowed Andy F's AP22, the figures would be acceptable. Unless of course they didn't match Stars RR, n which case, the RR would have to be re-calibrated <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I seem to recall not that long ago, somewhere in England, same rollers, same day
that this car indeed "failed to measure up" before AND after it had the latest super dooper turbo fitted http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Perhaps it needs to take a trip to Scotland for some 'mechanical' instead of 'retail' therapy http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 13 June 2003).]

Lateral Performance Ltd
13th June 2003, 19:10
Andy,

You have already commented in a previous thread that the commpressor map relating to the Garrett GT25/30 .86 A/R exhaust housing turbo should be more than up to the job. The exhaust housing is far bigger than the TD05, or even a P20, and the exhaust turbine is far larger too.

I'm interested to hear your comments about why the turbo holds 1.8bar on the road, but only 1.2bar at Well Lane ? Why this would be happening, and what you think the solution is.

Do you "honestly" think this is turbo related ? Or what other areas would you suggest Christian look into ?

Mark.

Pblamire
13th June 2003, 20:46
Andy,

I wasn't suggesting that you have been making claims on the back of the AP22, rather that people beleive them nowadays.

If you want an example of how spool up can be non turbo related, look at Alan Garrods results, do you think his boost is subject to lag or non optimised boost control on the part of the Link?

I understand peoples frustration at someone making what appear to be unsubstantited claims of power. However, I think that there is a certain amount of niavety on Christian's part.

While he may not have a have a power graph for his car that reflects it's current power we do have some facts to go on. The same facts are used by people to justify and/or rubbish claims and targets of power.

That said I am very happy to see your offer of help to sort out Christians car for him with some "mechanical therapy". I look forward to the results from either the AP22 or Star.

My point however, was that Christian seems to be an easy target, and I though the people that post here were beyond the "open season on Christian" mentality.

Paul

Andy.F
14th June 2003, 16:25
Mark

I'm not sure that Christian would welcome a public debate on the fine detail of his engine, so I'll refer only to the turbo you mentioned.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The exhaust housing is far bigger than the TD05, or even a P20, and the exhaust turbine is far larger too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This may be a clue http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Rolling roads tend to capture the engines performance as it would be put to the road in a lower gear ie 2nd or 3rd. So if it can't spool up and 'hit the rollers' quickly enough then that would tend to suggest that the in gear performance in 1, 2 & 3rd would also be lacking relative to the higher gears.

As we all know, this is a classic trade off for using a turbo capable of good high rpm breathing.

There 'may' be a better compromise available from the garrett or mitsubishi range, does the next step up from the TD05 turbine/housing have to be, quote "far larger" ?

Not sure if you intended to have a serious public discussion on turbo's or not ?

Andy

Anders
14th June 2003, 21:14
Note to all SCHIZOPHRENIA DOES NOT EQUATE TO MULTIPLE PERSONALITY DISORDER. That is something made up by American psychiatrists to sell books about the weak and attention seeking.

BTW Christian still looks like a young Fred West http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Pblamire
14th June 2003, 21:24
Andy,

I seem to remember, one day while sitting in your car on a rolling road, that you were asking for the operator to give it "one more run", "it doesn't spool up so well until the exhaust gas temp his (whatever)".

I also remember that Bob on that occasion was in his car with his laptop (see below for explaination).

And did you not go to Star to perfect a run time that wasn't too long, but not too short?

With your short gearbox ratios, did you not hold the car on the brakes to asses the spool up charactristics.

Isn't it also true that John Banks uses gear sensing Ecutek technology to give increased boost control gain in the lower gears, markedly increasing boost in 1st and 2nd and on rolling roads (without requiring a RR specific map of course).

Perhaps if Christians car had some of these concessions it would see better results?

Who knows, maybe we will some even better results from Christians car that everyone (ie the panel of RR judges) can ratify as being all above board.

Paul

Edited because Bob wasn't really cheating afterall!

[This message has been edited by Pblamire (edited 15 June 2003).]

Bob Rawle
15th June 2003, 08:01
Paul.... I was turning it down as it was actually in soft boost cut from 5800rpm to 7000rpm due to wheel spin, that rolling road run ruined two front tyres ... just for clarity. Nothing wrong with spool at all.

Andy.F
15th June 2003, 09:17
Paul

I agree with the points in your post above.

The run times at Star were decreased, giving even less time for spool up. This brings it more in line with Well Lane and Power eng.

EGT does climb with each run, it's the same for all cars, they all had 3-4 runs as I recall.

John Banks was running a Dawes on the 400+bhp rolling road run.

The reason to hold the car back on the brakes (on the road) was to get a figure comparable with a heavier, longer geared car.
I don't need to do this now as I'm running std UK gear ratios.

I'm sure christian will get a better result now he has dumped the Pace and induction kit http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
It shouldn't be difficult to improve on the early power figures. Even retaining the VE of my fairly standard engine 440 x 2.5/2.0 = 550 bhp should be available with less than 1.5 bar boost on a well set up 2.5 http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
Marks engine makes 550+ bhp although I've no idea how much boost he needs to run to achieve it.

Andy

Pblamire
15th June 2003, 10:21
IIRC, there are some "dismissed" results that suggest over 500hp is possible with 1.1bar. But like I say, these are assumed to be a mistake.

Paul

Lateral Performance Ltd
15th June 2003, 10:24
Andy,

I have no problem with "constructive" discussion on anything I'm involved with.

I do object when you make "derogatory" comments, whether they be in jest, or serious, directed specifically about a product I supplied, when you have no experience of the car !

Even when I ask you for possible causes, and solutions, your comments are biased ! This lacks integrity, and is beneath you !

As for 2.0lt~2.5lt power comparisons, this would assume that both engines make their power at the same RPM. 2.5's notoriously make ther power at a lower RPM (circa 6000rpm) and as you know, this has a massive effect. You would also have to make the comparison , or infact ANY power comparison, using the SAME FUEL, if you want "like for like".

Mark.

Andy.F
15th June 2003, 12:28
Sorry Mark. If you can't handle my opinion on this topic then I suggest you don't ask http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

My comments are based on 'facts'

1 - The spec of the engine as posted by the owner.

2 - The spec of the turbo as posted by you.

3 - The power output as measured same day/same place using the same method as my own car.

Regarding my "biased comments" can you tell me what they were biased towards ?
I have at no time even suggested that I have a turbo for Christian and would certainly not recommend a TD05/06-20g for running at 1.8 bar on a 2.5
I merely asked if &gt; Quote - "There 'may' be a better compromise available from the garrett or mitsubishi range"

Andy

Lateral Performance Ltd
15th June 2003, 14:17
Andy,

They are "biased" towards Christians issues being TURBO related, without any consideration towards any other alternative.

Christian has stated that the car holds 1.8bar on the road, as it is mapped to do, yet it only achieved 1.4bar at PE, and 1.2bar at WL.

Your "Opinion", is based on two things, and two things only, and that's the results of a PE, and the Well Lane RR runs, and they are not representative of the cars real performance.

You are fully aware of these "FACTS" too, but choose to ignore them, when giving your "opinon" http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif WHY ?

As for Christians turbo, yes of course there may be a better option, just like there may be a better option for all of us. I'm sure you'd like a turbo that could run 1.6bar at 3500rpm, as well as it does at the top end !

Would it solve the problem of achieving boost on the RR, I doubt it. Just like you, JB, Harvey, Bob, infact many of us needed time to get the runs right for our cars on the RR, so will Christian.

I tried to open a constructive conversation, but true to form, this doesn't interest you !

Mark.

Andy.F
15th June 2003, 16:03
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They are "biased" towards Christians issues being TURBO related, without any consideration towards any other alternative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You missed this bit then ?
"I'm sure christian will get a better result now he has dumped the Pace and induction kit"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I tried to open a constructive conversation, but true to form, this doesn't interest you !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So where were you when I tried to discuss the shortcomings of the VF turbo's exhaust turbine in relation to EGBP and engine efficiency ? You wouldn't even respond to my Emails on the subject never mind publically on a BBS http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

harvey
15th June 2003, 22:13
Hey. Leave me out of your list. The car has only one map, a road map and if it goes on the rollers anywhere it goes straight on without any special preperation and no adjustments to the map although while I run on the road at 1ml per litre NF I will run on the rollers or track with 2mls/litre just to give a safety margin for the unexpected or arduous conditions like higher intake temperatures. OK.

Pblamire
15th June 2003, 22:24
You were never on my list...

It's perfectly OK

Paul

Lateral Performance Ltd
15th June 2003, 22:31
Andy,

I realised a long time ago, that trying to have a sensible unbiased conversation with you, was futile. Whilst you deny it, and will no doubt to continue to do so, you blatantly have your own little agenda.

I'm just a fool for thinking that if I persist in trying to be constructive, and discuss things in a thread, you might do the same !

If you had the same issue as Christian on the RR, you wouldn't be questioning the turbo, but trying to get the RR to simulate the load, and spool up the car achieved in reality !

If this was achieved, and even at the correct boost, the car was still failing to produce the type of figures, based on the engine, boost, and turbo, then yes, one would start to question ALL areas of the set up.

So far this has not been the case.

As for your last comment, I'm at a loss to know what relevence this has to do with THIS thread. To me, it just shows where you're really coming from.

I have checked through all our correspondence, and I'm not certain which emails you're refering to. It was me who first emailed you regarding the VF, TD05, and TD05/6 threads, and I replied to every relevent mail. If I missed one, please let me know, because I can't find it.

As much as I would dearly LOVE to post my reasons for avoiding the threads you refer to, and what really transpired, all of which you are more than aware of, this isn't the place, nore am I in a position to have to go to court to prove what I would say.

I'm not going to get drawn into this anymore, it's pointless.

Mark.

Lateral Performance Ltd
15th June 2003, 22:35
Harvey,

I wasn't refering to your "maps", or set up, but purely to how it takes time to get a powerful car to run correctly on the RR.

I think the circa 50 minutes it took to get a realistic result at the G-Force RR day, is a good example, and that's all I was saying. OK.

Mark.

harvey
15th June 2003, 23:53
The only problem at G-Force was getting the car tied down satisfactorily and it took several attempts. The car was NOT run several times to get the correct run up time, boost or anything else. You were there, you saw what happened along with forty other people and Chris Davies will confirm that the problems were in securing the car to the rollers and nothing else and certainly nothing to do with runnung it til we got the result we wanted.

Lateral Performance Ltd
16th June 2003, 00:22
Harvey,

The point I was making, is that powerful cars are inherently more difficult to run, whether it be getting it tied down securely to prevent slip, or the correct load to get realistic turbo spool up.

In your case it was getting it securely tied down. The fact that you had results, IIRC, rangine from low 300bhp, to 560bhp, until G-Force sorted it, shows the potential problems.

Andy also posted that you struggled to get the correct results at Star, until you tried running in 3rd gear. It may have been your clutch, it may have been slipping, or it may just have been that the load produced in 3rd, better suited the power of your car.

My comments relate PURELY to finding the best way to run a specific car on the RR. Period. You of all people, with probably more experience on more RR's than anyone else I know, would be in a better position to comment.

Mark.

Mark.

ChristianR
16th June 2003, 07:47
Well this isn't how I expected the thread to turn out on 22b.com. Quite disappointed in most of the unhelpful comments, seems most people have the green eyed monster or perhaps another motive?

What some of you don't seem to understand is that I am more than happy with how the car is performing. The only reason why I changed the induction kit and in the process of changing the fmic is due to what bob mentioned. And seriously once that is done and I have had the remap, no more money will be spent on modifying the car. It will be finished.

Christian.

PS&gt; http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif to Mark and Paul.

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 09:03
Tut tut, constant accusations without substance http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I think my 'agenda' is clear for all to see !

Making people aware that you don't need to spend as much money to make power as some parts suppliers would have you believe.

Hardly surprising that this is going to upset some suppliers !

Andy http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Pblamire
16th June 2003, 09:17
Andy,

I see you say the TD05 is a £800 turbo.

Is that with a new core, with VAT and DUTY paid on the work, cover and wheel?

paul

Lateral Performance Ltd
16th June 2003, 09:48
Andy,

Damn, drawn in again http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy.F:

I think my 'agenda' is clear for all to see !

Andy http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're right. People only have to read your posts. The content normally consists of 3 things. Boasting about your results, knocking other people, and promoting your sales of TD05, and TD05/6 turbo's http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

My favourite comment from someone so far is "Andy the ambulance chaser" !

I don't have any problems with you selling turbo's, or the prices you sell at. To be honest, you're good for business http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mark.

pat
16th June 2003, 10:42
Andy,

I don't think that Mark has ever said that you "need" XYZ turbo to achieve a certain target. He may well have recommended that, *from the turbos he supplies* a particular type would be most suitable for a given application, but that doesn't negate the possibility that there may be other turbos from other suppliers that would also be suitable.

With regard to the expense part, perhaps we we should try to compare like with like. Of course it's going to be cheaper to buy a used TD05H, pull off the cover and the wheel, put a new cover and wheel on and put it back together. But you still have an unbalanced second hand turbo. If you were to do it properly, then you'de buy the TD05H and give it to a turbo shop, who would strip it down completely, re-machine all the critical surfaces, fit a new bearing and seal kit, fit your new compressor wheel, dynamically balance it, and only then supply it, with a warranty of course. You'de end up with a similar cost overall.

The other thing is that nothing is "hidden". I recall you having issues with compressor surge, you cut back your turbine blades yourself, but at the time didn't mention anything about this on the board. It's one thing to promote an alternative product, but it's deceitful to do so knowing full well that there are unresolved issues with it. Also bear in mind that most people would get a turbo shop to do the additional work necessary so there is an additional cost there you're not factoring in.

The VF series hybrids aren't "cheap". They never have been and they never will be. They do what it says on the tin... the MD304 makes 350BHP and the MD309 makes around 400 BHP, both RR proven figures. There aren't any surge issues, you don't need to cut the blades back, you just fit it. These figures were recorded on pump gas, no funny fuel blends. They were done on standard engines, no unusual mongrels. It's all open noone's trying to hide anything.

I can confirm that Christian's car does indeed make 1.8 bar on the road. If it doesn't on the rollers then the rollers are wrong, pure and simple. Just what good is a rolling road run that creates conditions that the car won't experience when you're actually driving it? It's pointless. A constant load is wrong. A constant ramp time is wrong. Cars don't behave like that on the road. In a way inertia rollers are much better than absorption rollers because you're accelerating a real mass. If that mass has the same inertia as the real car then you can begin to get close to what the car would do on the road (neglecting wind resitance). I'm sure it's possible to simulate that type of a reactive load on an absoprtion cell, but noone seems to do it, which is a shame.

Cheers,

Pat.

MorayMackenzie
16th June 2003, 15:48
Pavlo,

In reply to your:

"I find it rather odd that the people (ie Moray) that have been asking so insistantly that Christian "prooooooove" his power claims, know exactly what his RR results are.
I thought we had got past this stage?

Moray, have you lowered yourself to the ranks of the Max Power nova drivers that frequent scabynet?".

Firstly you say that I know exactly what Christians RR results are. I do not know exactly what his results were. I do gather it was close to 440hp at lowish boost, but that's about it as far as exact detail goes. Christian is now claiming a proven 460+bhp. I don't doubt that his car could produce such figures, I was merely asking him to elaborate on how he had obtained these "proven" figures.

I guess this is probably what you took most offence at:

"Several estimates and a blitz gadget estimation count as proof? LOL."

I thought that I had elaborated what I meant by this in the rest of the post:

"Frankly, it doesn't bother me how much power and torque you have, and I am sure that you have impressive quantities of each, that is not my point. My point is that you keep posting boasts about your power output based on estimates and gtech type thingies, which you are comparing to figures that others have obtained at rolling roads.

At least we can get a reasonable relative comparison of cars that have been rolling roaded at the same place in similar conditions.

I understand the cost issues you have with getting it rolling roaded, but I would prefer that you make it clear where the figures you do quote are derived from when you do quote them, just so people can take them in the right context.

If your Blitz-ID meter says you have 485.236bhp then why not tell us that your Blitz ID meter estimates your power to be that figure, and tell us what parameters you have entered into the unit before taking the reading?
"

So I was basically asking him to state more about how he found the figures he was aluding to... for instance, what settings he had entered into which power estimation thingy. I don't think this was an unreasonable request to make.

Moray

PS: Christian, for the record, I am not jealous of your car, however impressive it might be. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Pblamire
16th June 2003, 17:05
Fair enough Moray. Am rather tired of seeing Christian, or anyone else for that matter (seems like it's Mark's turn) to be ritually hounded.

Paul

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 18:00
Mark

Glad I'm good for business http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I'd like to think I've helped promote the TD hybrids to a position of superiority over the VF's............and now you've jumped on the bandwagon selling them http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Pity there isn't the same profit in it for
you as a VF22 from the US at $500 with a £70 garrett wheel in it, reselling at £xxxx http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Of course most people get that 'special price' PMSL that they need to keep quiet about ! Secrets, secrets http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Pat

A typical turbo that I produce will have been stripped, cleaned, inspected, crack tested, machined to fit bigger wheel, assembled with new thrusts and bearings. It will also be balanced _if_ it has had the turbine clipped. The clipping is not to avoid surge but to change the flow characteristic of the turbine. (Surge is not an issue with proper boost control, I only sell these turbos to customers who understand the controls required.)
Unclipped turbines assembled with a new (factory balanced) wheel do not require final assembly balance. Due to the fine tolerance on the mitsubishi turbos there is no 'cocking' of the wheel on assembly (unlike the small garrets for example)
I had a few checked and no adjustment was required. When required, balancing is no big expense, it cost a mere £18.95 per core http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

I agree that there are no rolling roads that accurately reproduce on road conditions, however I maintain that if a car can't produce its maximum power/boost output during a 15 second WOT run, which equates to approx accel of 300 rpm/sec, then the car is at fault, not the rollers. How would this same car perform in a 2nd gear roll on ? where the acceleration rate is even greater and the load lower ?
I can't believe it would pull full boost.

Andy

ChristianR
16th June 2003, 18:09
Andy : what turbo would you recommend for my car?

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 18:25
Christian

You recently claimed you are "more than happy" with your current (460?) bhp so I recommend you keep exactly what you've got.

ChristianR
16th June 2003, 18:29
Andy : I am interested to know your thoughts on what turbo I should use.

harvey
16th June 2003, 18:35
Pat : "but at the time didn't mention anything about this on the board. It's one thing to promote an alternative product, but it's deceitful to do so knowing full well that there are unresolved issues with it."

Rather strong language to accuse Andy of being deceitful. The only reason I knew Andy intended to clip the wheel was in his response to David Wallis I think it was when he said jokingly, he would use an angle grinder. Andy made no secret of the surge issues which are now resolved and I believe he explained openly and honestly where he was at with these turbo`s and all possible issues to all potential and actual purchasers.

This is turning into a bit of a bun fight but many of us have benefitted greatly from Andy`s work and experience and many people will agree with me that he has brought on many developments within the Subaru Community. I do not find his posts boastful as on technical matters he simply reports what has happened which seems fair enough.

How many other people on this board have made similar contributions, openly and selflessly ?

Paul : As regards VAT and duty it was me who was sourcing these components and while its nobody elses business, I pay duty on everything I import and pass the cost onto Andy or whoever.

Pblamire
16th June 2003, 19:29
Harvey,

What I mean wrt to the cost of a TD05 hybrid, is that you're buying a refurbed used unit. However reliable it may be, I don't think it's fair to compare to a wholy new turbo. You can buy a new core from the US, which seems cheap but you then have to add VAT and duty of course.

I was quoted £550 for a TD05 core from a UK turbo supplier (not TD but can't remember who) and that may have been plus VAT http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/redface.gif.

Add to that the cover and wheel for about £250 (is that about right?) and an exhaust housing, and an actuator, and you will have pushed past £1000. If anyone is interested in a turbo like Christian's they can of course ask Mark for a price, but it's not mega money by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, if you would like to add £500 to the price of the TD05 for a ball bearing conversion, it doesn't look so good. So if we really want to compare apples with apples, why not ask for a hybrid T3/T4 turbo, which costs under £800.

Paul

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 19:57
Pat

Turbine clipping, surge and the solution was discussed openly in my DIY 400bhp turbo thread way back in January. No deceiving going on whatsoever http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?ThreadID=162421

Paul

Why would you want new centre castings when the originals are good as new ? Would you buy a new engine block casting for a big hp build ?
As you say new cores are available from $480 in the US.
Re the BB conversion, I'm not sold on that yet, (but would like to be convinced)
I know the Lancer boys swear by it but I seen Dr Sams EVO7 on the rollers after his BB conversion. 'Exactly' the same result as before the conversion, spool up was also at the same rpm. John Banks had a drive in it but 3rd gear failed before he could get a decent run, initial impression was no difference IIRC !
If plain bearings are good enough for crankshafts/rods I can't see the need for BB's on a turbine shaft ? Surely the shaft 'floats' on the oil film wedge and never makes contact with the actual bearing ?

FWIW I think the T3/4 is a viable option for those prepared to go with custom up/down pipes http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Andy

Lateral Performance Ltd
16th June 2003, 21:33
Andy,

Not that it's any of your business, but ALL of the new turbo's I sell, or ever have done, are UK supplied, and come with full UK warranty.

Now if you want to discuss how much each of us make on TD05's, and TD06's, fine !

But whilst I'm VAT registered, declare all my earnings, and have ALL my turbo's PROFESSIONALLY built, and may be more expensive, I KNOW I make less on a turbo than you do !!!


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy.F:

(Surge is not an issue with proper boost control, I only sell these turbos to customers who understand the controls required.)Andy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess by "surge is not an issue", and "proper boost control", you mean limiting the boost below circa 4000rpm to circa 1.2bar, to avoid it "surging" ?
(IIRC, that's roughly what both you, and JB have said)

I guess that's one way on "bandaiding" the inherant problem with the TD06/20G on a 2.0lt http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Were your experimental 10, 13, XX degree clips, not an attempt to slow spool up, and reduce surge ? They certainly weren't an attempt to reduce EGBP, which you only tested more recently ?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy.F:

How would this same car perform in a 2nd gear roll on ? where the acceleration rate is even greater and the load lower ?
Andy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should ask Christian this question, before making even more unqualified sweeping statements !

I guess we could go on, and on, and on "bun fighting", but I'm not really certain why you feel the need to start them in the first place ?

I'm sure you have your own reasons ? is it an attempt to sell more of your turbo's ? or to try and prevent me selling mine, an ego trip ? boredom ? Don't we BOTH have better thing to do ??????

Mark.

sam elassar
16th June 2003, 22:15
listen baldy don't speak about things you don;t understand. how the hell do you know how my car was before the roller bearing turbo if you have not driven it before and after? oh sorry jb told, now this is a joke isn't it? the guy is such a drama queen that everything that he has ever done was the best things since sliced bread. then 3 minutes later he would sell it and buy something else and so on.

so before you talk a lot of crap about me, just ask.


the ball bearing turbo on an T05 16G 10.5T housing has allowed full boost to come in at 3200revs in 4th instead of 3500revs which before.

power at the wheels in my car has never stayed the same but always improved when i changed the turbo. so what you are on about is really beyond me.

or are you just picking a fight. what did you miss me honey http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


sam

David_Wallis
16th June 2003, 22:49
Harvey...

I wasnt joking.. its what andy told me at well lane that he did.. I couldnt belive it cos I thought I was the rough cnut http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif (sorry andy http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif)

For everybodys info I got a nice hybrid turbo and external wastegate from mark at a price I couldnt beat from a few well known suppliers, also some not so well known ones.. and also by trying to go via the states..

I have an excellent warranty and also the promise of drive it see what you think, if it doesnt do what you expect then we will resolve it..

Thats not the response I got from every other supplier.. I hope to be very happy with my mad choice of turbo..

David

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 22:51
Mark

The 20G will still outflow (read torque) any other 430+ bhp subaru turbo offerings between 2.5k and 4k rpm regardless of the boost being controlled http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif I'd rather have a 'frisky' quick spooling turbo that responds to proper control than a slow spooling one where you have no option but wait....and wait... on the engine rpm rising...............or optionally fit anti-lag or NOS to spool it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif and that's not a sticking plaster in your eyes ?


I would hope you make less on a turbo !
As I'm an Engineer, I actually DO something to it ! As mentioned previously I strip, clean, inspect, crack test, machine to fit bigger wheel, port turbine inlet, manufacture custom wastegate mounts, adapt and extend w/g linkage, assemble with new thrusts and bearings"

I wouldn't expect a 'middle man' who has done non of the above and hasn't even seen the turbo on occassion, to be making very much at all !

Andy

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 22:56
David

We all agree that I had clipped back a turbine and made it public, that's no big deal ! It's Pat that claimed I was 'deceiving' people by keeping it quiet ????

[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 16 June 2003).]

scoobpervert
16th June 2003, 23:00
http://mm.dfilm.com/mm2s/mm_route.php?id=1162288


ROFL http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 23:08
Excellent.. PMSL ... I didn't know anyone cared enough http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Slooby
16th June 2003, 23:25
Andy, word of caution, you need to be very sure of your source of wheels (there are several different companies used by the turbo manufacurers even on the 'same' turbos) some have potentionaly terminal flaws you are never going to detect with the methods you have mentioned!

Andy.F
16th June 2003, 23:35
Now then, where would a Doctor find an ultrasonic probe or an x-ray machine http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Adam M
17th June 2003, 00:54
depends if your doctor is a gp or a radiologist!

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 01:28
Andy,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy.F:

The 20G will still outflow (read torque) any other 430+ bhp subaru turbo offerings between 2.5k and 4k rpm regardless of the boost being controlled
Andy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you please QUALIFY this very bold statement. Are you claiming to have tried and tested EVERY 430bhp + turbo avalable for the Subaru http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy.F:

I would hope you make less on a turbo ! As I'm an Engineer, I actually DO something to it ! Andy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find it a little strange then, that an "Engineer" would take an ANGLE GRINDER to a part that's balanced to less than 1 gram at 80,000rpm, and only recently decided to start getting them balanced !!!

Cores are balanced as a complete rotating assembly at the factory. Change one part, and regardless of that new part being individually balanced, you can't guarantee that the whole UNIT will be balanced when the new part is fitted.

Then, on the ones that do escape your angle grinder,you had a couple checked, and they were within whatever tolerance you decided was ok. Mean while, you have no idea how good, or bad, the UNCHECKED turbo's are.

I won't do this, even if it were to cost £100.00. to balance them, I would rather lose the sale, than offer a product that I know is bodged together, and on turbo's we KNOW are going to be run at HIGHER than average boost.

I think I'll stick to being the "middle man", and let the PROFESSIONALS do what they do best.

Mark.

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 01:30
One thing is REALLY confusing me though.....


Who the hells supposed to be who in that bloody film ???? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Is JB the one with the hair ?

Mark.

AlanG
17th June 2003, 04:02
I think the angle grinder bit was tongue in cheek?

If it was indeed done by angle grinder, i would imagine the wheel would have spun at high revs on say a lathe to be able to do it, in which case for the sake of testing (i.e. not long term), there wouldn't be much of an issue regards balancing.

What i'm saying is, it would have been done to check for surge issues and be machined properly if there had been a positive outcome to that particular test.

Alan

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 07:52
Andy : I get 1.7bar in 2nd gear with the turbo mark supplied.

Pblamire
17th June 2003, 08:27
Please, girls, you're embarrassing.

My wife said "them scooby boys are sensitive".

Paul

P20SPD
17th June 2003, 08:47
Un - fecking - believable, really, it is http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

SecretAgentMan
17th June 2003, 08:59
I'll tell U lads what's un-feckin-believable.

The state of Tim's engine compartment, that's what.

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

/J - and a HUUUUUGE http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 09:01
Your wife reads this garbage ? She needs to get a life ! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Indeed the prototype was clipped in a lathe with a grinder in order to quickly test different degrees of cut back.
This way I could do the testing on my OWN car instead of Marks method of using customers as guinea pigs to 'test' various turbo combinations. (examples available)

Andy

SecretAgentMan
17th June 2003, 09:11
This turbo BS is getting really tiresome lads. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Both of you deliver, afaik one with warrenty - and I assume a larger pricetag, do I want the added security or is the budget a tad short?

The VF-hybrids delivered what they said (bar that 1.8 bar to the redline, but they still managed to deliver the rated HP output, at LOW boost, which is a Good Thing (tm)) - and so does the various Mitsu versions - and the td05 is a sweet thing, but at least on my car that needs MORE boost to wake up than the old 304 - which I'm not sure really is a Good Thing (tm). http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Each to his own, horses for courses, etc.

All you're doing really is fecking up the nice little places us car nerds have got here - and it's (imho) really sad.

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

/J

[This message has been edited by SecretAgentMan (edited 17 June 2003).]

MorayMackenzie
17th June 2003, 09:17
Jerry, Which Tim? Slooby? If I am not mistaken, his road going transport's engine bay is just as it was when it left the factory. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

SecretAgentMan
17th June 2003, 09:21
Usually I don't do this.....hell yeah I do. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=551245&outx=600&oq=0

Them rusty brackets are sending chills down my back. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

/J

Adam M
17th June 2003, 09:35
I totally agree with jerry, tim's engine bay is disgusting! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 09:42
Quote - The 20G will still outflow (read torque) any other 430+ bhp subaru turbo offerings between 2.5k and 4k rpm regardless of the boost being controlled.

OK Mark - Lets cut through the bull****
Time to put up or shut up, that is my 'bold' claim above.

Try and prove me wrong with your superior 2.0 scoob set up.

That's all from me on this subject (that will please most http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )

I'll meet you at a venue of your choice for the showdown. Let me know when you're ready.

Andy http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Adam M
17th June 2003, 10:02
Andy,

surely the only way to test a power claim in such a way is a back to back dyno test on the same engine, not in two different cars with two different ecus, maps, fuel qualities, intercoolers, cam profiles etc etc?

This isn't a mexican stand off, why do things have to be constantly "proven".

I hate to admit it, but this is what makes me want to leave the "community" side of imprezas ownership and just enjoy the car on my own.

There is so much testosterone flying round.

I think the idea of showing it to the wife to put it into perspective is a really good idea. It makes you realise how stupid we must look from the outside.

all I need now is a wife!

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 10:11
Andy: so the truth finally comes out, you real motive. I don't see why you didn't just come out with that about 6months ago?

You say that you are "open" about what you have done, except to me, it seems you are not. You are open if you are quized about a particular thing, and then you will come clean - but you wont just come out with it.

For instance your cocktail of fuel - you kept that quiet for a long time, but still made these claims that you were getting x amount bhp.

I believe in future as moray suggested, whenever you quote your bhp figures (on here or scoobynet), you should include what fuel you were using and also your non-standard engine - as you are basically giving false claims.

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 10:19
Didn't you read this 6 months ago Christian ? Engine spec included and I've been open about methanol for over a year, do you really want me to go dig out more old threads as proof http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?ThreadID=162421

[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 17 June 2003).]

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 10:27
Here you are Christian - Using Methanol openly as far back as April 02 (I was cosie convert for anyone unfamiliar with that http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?ThreadID=87085

Please correct your post above stating that I made "false claims"

[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 17 June 2003).]

MorayMackenzie
17th June 2003, 10:34
Yee Gads Jerry! That is, indeed, even more untidy that my engine bay! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

But his other engine bay is just as Henry's company intended it to be. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Richard.D
17th June 2003, 10:44
Personally, I blame Adam.

Six months ago he says here that he's never posting on snet again because of the damn 'turbo wars'.

Then, 'turbo wars' comes here http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Adam, go and post on the Lancer Register http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Problem for me, is both Mark and Andy provide a lot of support to us. It just saddens me to see it come to this - please stop. The market place is big enough for more than one supplier of anything......except Wintel sh*t, it seems.

Richard

Edited to make clearer, in reaction to Adam's 'wtf' post http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Richard.D (edited 17 June 2003).]

Adam M
17th June 2003, 10:53
yee gads?


wtf?

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 10:53
Andy,

I don't have to PROOVE anything, YOU made the claim, what is it based on ?

You can't qualify your statement, and in an attempt to save face, think challenging me will let you off the hook !

However, it won't PROOVE your claim, even if you do get a better result between 2500~4000rpm than I do !!!

BUT, I'm game for a laugh, but it will have to wait until after TOTB http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

You accuse me of using people as "Guinea pigs", but neglect to say that they are fully aware of this BEFORE they take a turbo.

It has happened with two people, John Banks, who I asked if he would test a new idea, and give me feed back, and Alan Garrod, who also new he would be trying a new product, and was prepared to give me the feed back I needed. I admit that I was struggling to find Alan a turbo he was happy with, but, it also shows that I will go out of my way to solve any issues.

Both these people knew the turbo's were untested, both offered to test, and appraise them !

Some turbo's failed badly to perform the way I'd hoped, but that's R&D. I believe Alan is happy with the current turbo ! and John asked to buy the TD04 hybrid turbo I'd asked him to test, but that was a lifetime away.

Anyway, once TOTB is out of the way, we'll sort out getting together. Dawn, or Highnoon http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mark.

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 10:59
Andy &gt; You are still making false claims, so I do not need to correct my post. I never knew you were "cosie convert" and I bet quite a few people don't either.

The posts I always read from you always implies you are running a standard engine car, on normal fuel etc. You never say the "whole" truth.

[This message has been edited by ChristianR (edited 17 June 2003).]

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 11:03
Christian - what you on about now ? I published my engine spec on a number of occassions and also the fuel I use. If you missed that detail then tough, I'm not going to repeat my spec/fuel in every thread for the benefit of those with a selective memory !

Mark

Think we could sell tickets http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 17 June 2003).]

Tone Loc
17th June 2003, 11:49
Been watching this thread for a while now.... some interesting stuff if you manage to read around all the bad feeling. All this from from what people saw as an attack on Christian. I must say tho that it may help if Christian stops refering to his car as 'the beast' sounds like your firmly up your own arse. IMHO. It's like me calling my dong 'the python' . Just beacuse it's 12" long i don't need to brag about it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif .

Tony.

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 12:18
tone loc : it is the beast of jersey as someone called it a while back, and that is why most people refer it to as that. And as Andy has said, I quote "If you missed that detail then tough, I'm not going to repeat my spec/fuel in every thread for the benefit of those with a selective memory !"

Slooby
17th June 2003, 12:18
Andy, medical equipment doesn't have the resolution required...I suggest that you keep it for medical type applications http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 12:21
Andy : I believe in future as moray suggested, whenever you quote your bhp figures (on here or scoobynet), you should include what fuel you were using and also your non-standard engine - as you are basically giving false claims.

Slooby
17th June 2003, 12:23
J at least it's a bit cleaner now, look at what it was like before http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=540624&outx=600&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=540628&outx=600&oq=0

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 12:27
Andy,

I think you're right ! Which RR has the biggest "seating capacity" http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

In the mean time, can we call a truce ? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Mark.

Slooby
17th June 2003, 12:58
Hire Abbey's Dyno Pack and chose some open venue like the centre of the pitch Old Trafford in Manchester http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Lot's of capacity for spectators, and at least there can be now excuses about wheel slip http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 13:07
Mark - OK, you're back on the 'provisional' xmas card list http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Christian - rearrange the following into an applicable term 'kettle' 'pot' 'the' 'black' 'calling'

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 13:17
Andy - totally agree with you.

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 13:21
What ? To put Mark back on the xmas card list http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Have you confirmed for TOTB yet ? I can't wait http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 14:28
Any chance of EVERYBODY havng a truce ?

I was going to respond to what my car was doing at what boost, but decided now wasn't a good time !!!

It would also only be done to provide info, not to start another bloody mines bigger than yours war http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

I can't believe I'm even cosidering this, since I've managed to keep my mouth shut since OCTOBER 2001 http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Mark.

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 14:51
Mark

I think we all know yours is in a different league from the other 'big' engine builds (with the possible exception of Davids ?)

Anyone following i-club would have got the full spec/power/torque you published last year, or was it 2001 ? Anyway from the snippets of info available recently I gather it has evolved since then !

I look forwards to seeing the results/spec http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Andy

AlanG
17th June 2003, 15:05
Hang on a minute!

Mark

In the beginning i wasn't informed i was going to be a guinea pig for your products!

In the beginning you recommended to me an MD304 after arranging a trip out in Tim's car at Donnington, after which having liked his turbo and cars' mannerism we decided on a different spec to Tim's to allow me to run a higher boost level of 1.5 bar as against Tim's 1.25. At that moment in time, i trusted your judgement on what would be a suitable alternative. In other words, the sales speech.

I wasn't informed of being a guinea pig for the product.

You are correct though in stating that if i wasn't happy with my turbo, you would change things around in an attempt to satisfy this customer, something you have stood by (many companies don't), and now, many months down the line, we have achieved that.

You make a statement about leaving things to the professionals, but lets put the cards on the table... the professionals have failed your company on numerous occasions with their inability to get a product right and right first time. You have told them on several occasions now what was required and time and again, they failed to produce the goods, despite being adamant each version would complete the task required.

It has been down to testing by your customers to try and achieve a marketable product.
Companies spend millions developing products before they hit the market place, so to have a customer prepared to do this type of testing for no recompense is cheap in my opinion.

The product supplied through your company and which is on my car at the moment i believe to be a highly marketable product for a lot of Subaru owners.
More so, for those that have reservations in spending thousands on engine rebuilds and prefer to have "bolt on goodies".This turbo provides user (read: driver) friendliness coupled with a substantial increase in power for the boost used, which can only be a good thing for the Impreza engine, if it hasn't had work done on it to be able to take high levels of boost

David_Wallis
17th June 2003, 15:07
Andy mine isnt in the same league as marks..

my car wasnt really built for any purpose... I just wanted it to be quicker..

I am actually bothered about cost, where as mark probably isnt..

I think theres some other big builds, but marks does sound interesting..

Also I think you should mention what you are doing mark..

You dont need to mention duration, lift, overlap.. compression ratios.. turbo specs etc..

Also what you are doing with your other demo cars http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

David

Pblamire
17th June 2003, 15:18
David,

My build is bigger than yours, about 150cc bigger!

budget bigness!

Paul

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 17:00
Alan,

YHM, rather than continue this on the bbs. However, it's not private, and you can use any, or all of it as you see fit.

Mark.

Adam M
17th June 2003, 18:08
Andy,

for info sake, my engine build is the same league as marks was, if anything it is an evolution. But certainly not extreme by any means.

Very soon hopefully, will have some results.

fingers crossed.

David_Wallis
17th June 2003, 18:33
Sorry Adam, I would now disagree with that..

Somethings maybe similar.. somethings certainly arent.

David

Pblamire
17th June 2003, 18:40
ALthough SMG can't make it, me thinks he will be there in spirit, somehow.

Paul

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 18:50
Paul,

If some of us don't make it, he certainly will be ! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Adam,

You've certainly benefitted from the "learning process", and I would expect yours to do very well, particularly with the slightly smaller turbo, low down torque should be very "nice" http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Just hope my evolution, of an evolution does as well.....

Mark.

Adam M
17th June 2003, 19:03
wallis,

I don't know how you can say that. I said it is the same as marks was.

Since I knew his spec before and know mine now, how can you say what I said above is not the case?

His is different now, but the game has moved on, and we have different goals. I am still going for the ultimate everyday road going impreza.

harvey
17th June 2003, 19:09
David: Thought you were expecting 600 bhp. "Not in the same league" All I can say about the other car is WOW!!!
Christian:After your battering earlier on here I would have thought you would be bright enough not to make yourself a target.You are just not helping yourself.

How can you of all people accuse Andy of false claims which are then disproven by Andy quite randomly and you then refuse to withdraw your accusation of falsehood. No wonder you become a target.
The Beast of Jersey: Big fish in a little pool.
You got your form in for TOTB yet? Then we can really see how your 2.5 litre goes in on the road conditions never mind crap RR results that are explained away to you.
One thing I do not understand is if you pull 1.7+ bar in 2nd why do you only pull 1.2? on the rollers??? Is that with your AVCR fitted.

David_Wallis
17th June 2003, 19:32
fookin ell adam.. bite easily dont you http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Since yours is most likely to run first then erm.. hmm..

Maybe if you spent less time reading books and changing your mind about the spec, then you may keep up with the others http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif :P

be the first engine to have seized before its run http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

P20SPD
17th June 2003, 20:55
The fun never stops http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 20:55
Harvey

Just read in the trackday thread that Christian has decided not to run.
Says it all really, no further comment required http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 21:28
harvey - avcr isn't fitted yet, haven't had time been too busy with the house (but you knew this already, as I had said in the email to you). I only ran in 4th gear on the rollers.

Also, I do not feel I have had a "battering", it is just insecure people who have have the green eyed monster - doesn't bother me, just shows how stupid and immature these people are.

Andy - if you want to pay for me to come over, then I will gladly take part in TOTB2, however, with this new house, funds just don't allow it. Which is a great shame, as I have been looking forward to it since last years TOTB.

Perhaps everyone can chip in? what do you say peeps? need about £1500 raised, so I can go over for the weekend and take part in TOTB2.

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 21:43
Just you keep talking the talk http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif There are plenty volunteers on here keen to walk the walk.

ChristianR
17th June 2003, 21:47
Andy, bring your car over to Jersey, and we will see who can walk the walk - or are you just going to keep talking the talk? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Pblamire
17th June 2003, 21:52
Touché

Fancy a hill climb Andy?

paul

T-uk
17th June 2003, 21:59
sounds to me like andy's "mind fcuk" games are working http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

pity, given that the day will be the biggest TRUE test for the car but I suppose some have used their excuse quota for the year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 22:08
Not sure I can make it now, my left indicator is flashing slightly quicker than my right one and I wouldn't like to go with the car not being 100% right http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I've also spent a lot of money on my garden shed lately and I'm not sure I can afford it.

Adam M
17th June 2003, 22:16
Andy, you can always enter the garden shed into TOTB!

Andy.F
17th June 2003, 22:21
Relative to the competition, I am !!

Lateral Performance Ltd
17th June 2003, 22:47
Andy,

Ahh Haa, playing the "but look what they spent" card early http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Good move, no lose situation ! If you lose, well what would you expect against what they've spent........But, if you win, boy, I'm heading for the hills http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

IMO, you'll do well, regardless.

Now, where's my get out of jail free card http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Mark.

David_Wallis
17th June 2003, 23:35
you cant change gear for sh1t?

andy you do have one major advantage.. your car is run in..

We wont be giving 100% as we havent run them in.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

And please dont lower this to insulting christian and his bird (as I cant spell that word and dont want to call christian a sh1t stabber again http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/redface.gif ) and calling their new house a garden shed.. (no offence.. anyone)

David
the slowest impreza at totb http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Lateral Performance Ltd
18th June 2003, 00:11
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David_Wallis:
you cant change gear for sh1t?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem is, you're right http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

But I'l do what I can, Pat will have a cup of tea and a burger between my gear changes, I'll make a few people laugh, and hopefully, we'll all have a good time !

Mark.

AlanG
18th June 2003, 00:15
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Alan,
YHM, rather than continue this on the bbs. However, it's not private, and you can use any, or all of it as you see fit.

Mark.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark

You have mail in response to your query. However, i still stand by what has already been posted.

Alan

pat
18th June 2003, 02:35
Andy,

just quickly and not wanting to get into a heated debate, my comments were related to the fact that you're sometimes economical with the information you make available, which can be misleading. If you're only doing it for yourself then that's fine, if you are expecting others to follow you down that path then it's misleading to withhold information, or to require someone to do a search of the board to get the full picture.

To give you an example, I could legitimately claim that my engine makes 240 BHP with no boost whatsoever, but anyone who doesn't know what I'm up to would assume they could do the same with their engine, which is clearly not true...

Cheers,

Pat.

SecretAgentMan
18th June 2003, 06:25
It's as I suspected, the entire island is full of small-willied males.

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

You are embarrassing yourselves the lot of ya - why not all be friends, and work TOGETHER to at least give the Skylines a run for their money?

I was going to pop over for this...now I really don't feel like it, I'm thinking spendning the weekend at Alton would be better.

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

/J

P20SPD
18th June 2003, 08:19
SAM get your arse over to watch TOTB2, it will be worth, even if its just to see how many burgers and cups of tee Pat can consume http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Christian, has you are not coming up, i will let my in laws know, and they can sell the room in the B&B.

If it was costing me that much to run, then no way would i run!!

Shall i bring the male elephant from the local zoo along, as i am sure he will put you all to shame http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Steven

David_Wallis
18th June 2003, 08:22
no need steven, I'll be there http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif..

King ding... yeah well we will leave it at that..

SecretAgentMan
18th June 2003, 08:51
Steve - Yeah...and hearing Mark get back on boost after that wicked gearchange (I bet he's back on full vacuum between changes) would be well worth it. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'd love to go there in the old silver thing, but the ferry over is FO exp in "high season" (when people wants to use it, THIEVES)...and I'm not really the commuting sorta fella.

Ryan Air to Stanstead...train from London to Leeds, go by ICE'd up mota to Elvington (if Chiark could bear my remarks on how feckin slow his car is http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

Hum...

/J

Pblamire
18th June 2003, 09:18
I live right by stansted airport, so can possibly give you a lift if the timing is right

P20SPD
18th June 2003, 09:44
And now Christian has confirmed he is not running, my in laws have one spare room in the B&B, which Paul could take you to http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy.F
18th June 2003, 10:15
Ok Pat, I see where you're coming from http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

To put your mind at rest, I can tell you that everyone who has mailed me with an interest in purchasing a turbo has been made fully aware of a number of identical units running on other cars, all with different set ups, all of which are making over 400bhp and providing good useable boost from very low rpm.

Perhaps in future I should include a disclaimer in every thread http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Any good lawyers on here http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Andy

MorayMackenzie
18th June 2003, 10:15
Christian:

RE: "Also, I do not feel I have had a "battering", it is just insecure people who have have the green eyed monster - doesn't bother me, just shows how stupid and immature these people are."

So I guess this is you telling me that you consider me to be jealous, stupid and immature. Oh well. I did at least bother to read your posts, silly me. LOL

Pblamire
18th June 2003, 10:21
I thought we had called a truce?

Moray, do you know any moderators that can sort this mess out?

Paul

Andy.F
18th June 2003, 11:06
Paul

Why read it if it annoys you ? You're like my missus with 'big brother' http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif What a load of rubbish she says.......but keeps tuning back to watch it every night http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

(unless of course you are after a lateral performance induction kit as the title suggests http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif)

Andy

Disclaimer &gt;&lt;
&lt;Disclaimer Fitting an identical turbo may not result in 440.5 bhp at 6410 rpm and 381 lbft torque at 5740 rpm from 1.47 bar of boost on a 2.0 engine.
If you do not keep standard wrx/uk/sti internals and/or use more or less than 4% methanol in your Optimax the power of your engine may go down as well as up&gt;

&lt;Edited for legal reasons&gt;



[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 18 June 2003).]

António Correia Jr
18th June 2003, 11:11
I really did not expect this kind of post on this BBS.
Why don't we all stick to what we've got and leave personal disputes out of here.

By the way, anyone needs a lawyer? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Pblamire
18th June 2003, 11:16
Andy,

You forgot to add.

"After fitting this turbo, the power of your engine may go down as well as up"

Paul

Andy.F
18th June 2003, 11:22
Advice taken Paul http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Why does text in pointy brackets not dissappear now ?

[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 18 June 2003).]

SecretAgentMan
18th June 2003, 11:37
Paul/Steve - Awfully kind of ya lads! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif I'll see what can be done, there *might* be 2 of us turnips though.

Paul - Which date are you planning to head north?

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

/J - with some hope of the friendly atmosphere around this place regained. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

T-uk
18th June 2003, 12:56
they must have sorted the pointy bracket glitch, although I looked back at the chit chat thread and my secret messages are still there.

&lt;test&gt;

Adam M
18th June 2003, 13:09
what about "past performance is no indication of future returns!"?

Andy.F
18th June 2003, 14:37
http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mr J
18th June 2003, 17:29
Jerry..are seriously thinking of going over to see how the "War" will finish.. ?

I have trying too tell some of my friends here up north were we should be this year...but.. they don't seem to understand.

Would be real fun to see how all the cars will do anyway http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

We could take one of the silver piles over though http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Jan

Andy.F
18th June 2003, 19:20
The war http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

I can tell you now ! The 2.33/2.5 cars 'attending' will be in a totally different league with regard to power and speed.

The 2.0 cars should be a bit closer together though, those results will be more down to the drivers than the machines http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Andy


[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 18 June 2003).]

ChristianR
18th June 2003, 19:39
It has taken a while Andy, but I am proud of you for finally seeing sense! Well done! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

Andy.F
18th June 2003, 20:20
Oops, forgot to add that important word, 'attending' http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Jolly Green Monster 2
18th June 2003, 21:34
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, I do not feel I have had a "battering", it is just insecure people who have have the green eyed monster - doesn't bother me, just shows how stupid and immature these people are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You called..... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif PMSL!

Simon

ChristianR
18th June 2003, 21:48
lol @ Simon

and Andy, that just proves what I wrote earlier about you. I love being right.

Anyway, I guess this thread should now be locked.

harvey
18th June 2003, 22:17
Christian : Only e.mail I got from you said that you would get back to me later so I did not know you were still waiting to fit the AVC-R.

If it helps, you and Natalie can stay here any of the nights, August 1,2,3 & 4 free gratis. Genuine offer, it is entirely up to you. I am approximately 60 miles North of Elvington.

If you are a betting man I will give you a £250 even wager that my 2 litre will outpace your 2.5 litre on at least 2 of the three events.

Andy : Your disclaimer is defficient in that you have not clarified your relatively low all up weight. Those who cannot read or have short memories could have a beef after TOTB if you do not have this in your disclaimers on all future posts. Maybe you should include it with your user name.

Pat : I am very interested to know what you are up to so in the spirit of Glasnost and this new found openess on this board a post on how to get good off boost bhp would be of great interest to me as it is something I have pondered on over a long period.

harvey
18th June 2003, 22:18
PS : Christian : You do not have to accept the wager to get the free accommodation.

David_Wallis
18th June 2003, 22:21
Is the wager open to anyone http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Id like 250 on harveys car http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

David_Wallis
18th June 2003, 22:22
oh and pats way is CC's

Anders
18th June 2003, 22:43
Congrats we get to 3000 members with a flurry of newbies because of this thread.

Note men and Motors will be at 10 of the best so any fights will be captured in all their detail for a mature audience. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

pat
19th June 2003, 02:22
Harvey,

I have succumbed to the old American addage that there ain't no replacement for displacement http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif So I looked at various options available with the Subaru EJ series bell housing pattern (so I don't have to ditch the gearbox).

The engines of interest there are the EJ25, the EZ30 and the EG33. We all know and love (or hate?) the EJ25 so it requires no introduction. The EZ30 (or the new H6 as they call it) is a 3 litre flat six with a few trick features which mean it's only 1 inch longer than the EJ series. Finally there is the EG33, a 3.3 litre flat six loosely based on the EJ22 but with a pair of extra cylinders slapped on, making it about 5 inches longer.

The EJ25 has been done. The EZ30 has a different bore pitch, bore size, stroke, you name it, so finding parts for it is gonna be difficult, and to make matters worse, the exhaust ports are siamesed. This left the EG33, which has the same internal geometry as the EJ22, just more cylinders, so this is what I have chosen to use. It's the second largest displacement Subaru engine I am aware of (the largest is the B12 engine).

With all the emission control stuff in place it makes 230 BHP, lose the cats and get it breathing easy and it will make an easy 240 BHP normally aspirated (it'll do that on a cold day anyway). There was an owner in the US that fitted a turbo to his "because he could". He ran 4 PSI boost and released another 80 BHP. I think that the internals will take 8 PSI before they start to complain (it's 10:1 compression, but allegedly has forged pistons), so I'm expecting to get the best part of 400 BHP at 0.6 bar boost.

My "problem" is that I got my engine from Autosportif, who got it from Prodrive, who stripped and rebuilt it, but noone seems to know exactly what's in there now. LOL.

Anyway, I'm refitting the engine to the car (hopefully) early next week. We had to remove the engine from the bay to finish off some of the pipework for the twin Garrett GT25 ball bearing turbos. It will be interesting to hear it when it finally fires http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I know that they "normally" sound like, muffled by restrictive exhausts, but my exhaust is somewhat freer flowing. I'm guessing that it will sound a little like a Skyline, but perhaps a bit more raspy due to the stainless steel tubular headers.

It might be fun to run it at TOTB2, but I don't expect to do very well because it's only a prototype. I'm only brave enough to run 0.6 bar on it, there are only 25 thousand of these engines worldwide so I don't want to break something so rare. While the prototype won't be too impressive on the quarter mile or anything like that, on the road it should be devastating. To put it into perspective, it will pull harder than a UK Turbo 2000 or UK WRX ever does instantly, before it makes any boost, then it gets interesting http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I already have a spec on paper for what I want to do with it internally for the second phase of the project, but the costs are quite high so I'll have to do it over time. Just to give you an idea, consider that the crankshaft alone will cost about two and a half thousand pounds!

With regard to getting the power out of a 2 litre engine without the boost, it's down to airflow and thermal efficiency. I believe it is possible to make the power with a 2 litre, but there are some truely horrible restrictions in the Subaru engine. Just as a comparison, I'm messing about with another engine, it's 1.9 litre and we're already seeing about 190 BHP normally aspirated without revving it past 7000 RPM. QED makes parts for the Vauxhall 2 litre DOHC engine which make 240 BHP normally aspirated (be sure to use the Coscast not the GMcast head). There are also examples from Japan of Mazda 1.6 litre engines making around 240 BHP normally aspirated.

The key is in the cylinder heads. I used to be very dismissive of head work, until I sat down and thought about it.... then it dawned on me that it doesn't matter how good the bottom end is, if the air can't get in there, then it will never make the power. I think this goes a long way to explaining Andy's results. I think that a lot, if not most, of the cars that are now making good power are Phase II engines. Yours, Bob's, John's etc they're all Phase II. Perhaps the new power revolution is not just about choosing the right things to go round an engine, but also related to choosing the right engine to start with ? Food for thought http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers,

Pat.

David_Wallis
19th June 2003, 07:13
fookin ell QED.. reminds me when I played with XE engines.. SBD etc..

http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

David

Andy.F
19th June 2003, 08:02
Worse than that, I remember when Skip Brown only done Lotus Sunbeam work http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Adam M
19th June 2003, 08:53
who?

what is a lotus sunbeam?


( http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif by the way. I may be 25, but I know what a lotus snbeam is, just not who skip brown is!)

David_Wallis
19th June 2003, 10:11
Im 23 and I dont http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Andy.F
19th June 2003, 10:23
Ah ! It was SBC & SBE I was thinking of, not SBD !

SBC and SBE (skip brown cars & engineering)prepared Lotus Sunbeams....and still do I believe !

One of these cars would be good for sharpening up your reactions to rear power bias Adam ! Something like 50% of the cars driven by the journalists at launch were binned as they were so tail happy ! Really it was just that they didn't understeer like everything else available at the time !

Andy



[This message has been edited by Andy.F (edited 19 June 2003).]

MorayMackenzie
19th June 2003, 10:52
IIRC, Certain JTCC teams were getting 290ps out of ej20 NAs years ago. Of course, these were probably reving a bit higher than 7K at the time. Individual throttle bodies over each cylinder too. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Also, IIRC, Adam was/is actively looking for ways to make his car _less_ tail happy.

ChristianR
19th June 2003, 12:55
Harvey thank you for the offer - it is mostly the insurance ontop of the boat etc that is costing so much. But it is appreciated.

harvey
19th June 2003, 13:36
Hi Pat : Thanks for your very comprehensive and interesting reply. The fact that the EJ33 is similar to the EJ22 will obviously help with parts selection but presumably you would need some bespoke pistons. I have an EJ22 CDB but because I was unable to get pisons I would be absolutely happy with it has been sleeved down to 92.25mm.

Have you any idea at what revs your EJ33 is likely to develop peak power. Even if it is relatively low I suppose that 3.545 diffs front and rear would make it a very interesting road car.

Good luck when it comes to fitting the engine in the car. Sounds a bit daunting.

I am interested that you have gone for twin turbos. Is this to suit the existing layout and ease of installation or to keep lag reasonable or both ? While the big power Porsches are twin turbo the most successful Skylines all appear to be single turbo.

Again, good luck for making Ten of the Best and if you do make it, I would suspect it will only be a shakedown exercise because even on a semi-standard car you cannot expect it to work to its full potential straight out the box. My car took from April to October last year to go from 300 to 417bhp and from then until this April to reach 450bhp because there is a lot of trial, error, testing and refining along the way.

I agree about engine breathing and I have identified that is the main limiting factor for top speed on my car at present.Until a couple of weeks ago I thought it was just a matter of some better cams and porting and polishing but the more I have delved into it the more I realize how involved and complex this subject is and a science on its own. Having started the engine at the end of May I had no doubt I would use it for 3rd August but that will not happen now simply because I need to know far more before I make final decisions on the heads, inlet manifolds etc.

I look forward to hearing you have completed the installation of the engine.

MorayMackenzie
19th June 2003, 16:26
Harvey,

"I am interested that you have gone for twin turbos. Is this to suit the existing layout and ease of installation or to keep lag reasonable or both ? While the big power Porsches are twin turbo the most successful Skylines all appear to be single turbo."

The porsche has a horizontally opposed 6 pot, the skyline is a straight 6... A decent exhaust manifold for a straight 6 single turbo is just about possible, but the 6pot boxer would be seriously limited by making up a single turbo manifold. Twin turbos offer pulse based advantages, especialy for V or Flat motors. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif Besides, imagine the noises a boxer 6 with twin induction roar might make. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Adam M
19th June 2003, 17:43
Harvey,

I also have a 2.2 closed deck block with uprated internals.

I managed to get hold of some JE pistons which were an exact replica of the original 22B pistons.

Would these not have suited you? they do maintain the standard compression ratio of 8:1 including the squish area design.

They have some JE improvements built into the design, but other than that are perfect replicas.

I had them made by having mine copied.

Slooby
19th June 2003, 19:27
I thought Mark (Lateral Mark) had 2.2 pistons available?

harvey
19th June 2003, 22:55
Thanks for that Moray. I had thought that some of the 3 litre Porches were single turbo?
The compression ratio will be more than 8.0:1 (but as yet not finally decided) and I did not want to use JE Pistons.

MorayMackenzie
20th June 2003, 10:06
Hi Harvey,

I was kind of talking about the current evolution of the porsche turbos... IIRC there were single big turbo versions in the past, but a large part of the turbo sizing on those was the efficiency required in order to keep intake temps in safe regions on the aircooled engine.

The current water cooled engine is 3.6l, has twin turbos, a geometry that is, IIRC, more over-square than the scooby (even the ej25!) and runs a C/R of ~ 9.4:1 (may even be up at 9.6:1), which is a nice way to go about making one of the quickest OE turbocharged roadcars available today. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

harvey
20th June 2003, 10:46
Cheers. I had not thought through the implications for header design flat six v/v straight engine. Now a C.R.of 9.4/9.6 sounds real exciting to me but will it be too much on a Scooby??? and what are the implications???
I think Stan S runs about 9.5 and I know of rally cars wih 10.5:1 but their application and specare not really comparable.
Another variable requiring even more consideration after I thought I had spec finalise. Damn.

Andy.F
20th June 2003, 10:56
The latest Porsche gets away with a high CR due to its low specific output. With IIRC 450? bhp from its 3.6litres, thats only 125 bhp/litre. In other words 250bhp on a 2.0ltr or 312 bhp from a 2.5ltr.
Not sure if Harvey is after more than this http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

CC's are the key... CC's and RPM.... CC's, RPM and boost - our 3 main weapons are.....I feel a monty moment coming on http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Adam M
20th June 2003, 11:12
nobody expects the scottish inquisition?

Andy.F
20th June 2003, 11:43
Close http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Adam M
20th June 2003, 11:45
actually I think it was bang on!

harvey
20th June 2003, 11:45
Adam:Can you clarify if I am regarded as part of the Scottish Maffia?

So what is the experience of those runnin "high" C.R. and what are the views on optimum ratio without resoting to water.???

Slooby
20th June 2003, 12:23
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and I did not want to use JE Pistons.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's alright then, I don't think that Mark's prime supplier is JE either...

harvey
20th June 2003, 19:13
Glad that meets with your approval Tim.