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Andy.F
30th October 2013, 09:36
Ok so all the moaning and unloading of gripes has been done in the other thread. Last year has gone now and we can't change what happened. No disrespect to Steven as he worked hard to get this off the ground but if he doesn't want to be involved in 2014, we need to respect his decision and then find someone who does and move forward. There may still be attitudes to deal with so it needs someone that is ready to cope with that and shrug off any personal criticism.

A clear set of technical regs will go a long way to easing the task of organiser/scrutineer.

We need absolute clarification on what you CAN do in each class (well S1 and S2) and anything not listed, you simply CAN'T do.
I suggest we get a tech spec list sorted in November then people have 3-4 months to seek clarification on any points. To avoid any repeat of "he said this to ***" any clarification given to anyone is then listed as an addendum on the list for all to see.

Taking this a step further, any technical clarification request (pre season) would be put in print before a small committee, say for example Steven, John F and myself for final decision with a majority decision needed for it to go forward as a change.

Come race day, anyone that has made changes that are not on the list, fix it before starting or run in the next class up. If its found at the end of the day, any points or trophy are returned.

I don't mind pulling together slightly tighter tech regs and even administering the addendum list however if competing on the day then I'm not available for scrutineering eligibility duties.

Lets not forget, the vast majority of entrants this year had a great time and had no issues whatsoever with car tech spec, so please people looking in, don't think this whole series is about petty squabbling, it certainly isn't.

Can we try and keep this thread positive please, we all want this series to go ahead :)

MAD Hammer
30th October 2013, 10:07
Top man Andy and thank you. Although I do have the chin for it, competing myself and totb duties I really don't think I could do it justice. Happy to help anywhere that is needed though.

Nathan Lockley
30th October 2013, 10:09
Top man Andy :)

Simon_
30th October 2013, 10:32
Isnt this a bit too soon?

Stevens expressed his current feelings not made a decision to do or not do anything?

AndyH
30th October 2013, 10:34
Nice to see something positive, would love to help where possible.

Matt R
30th October 2013, 10:37
Suggestion....

What about having separate class scrutineers?

That way the individual would only need to know and learn the regs for a single class, probably making them easier to remember and enforce and also less workload.

That way it could be split so a competitor could do the scrutineering due to fewer cars and still have the time to compete themselves.

It would also prevent the need for someone not directly involved having to turn up to events that are 100's of miles away.

Just a thought and would be happy to do s3 if people think its a decent idea.

p555sbr
30th October 2013, 10:48
I agree with andys idea of a panel to allow/disallow certain mods as its takes away the honest on 1 person once a decision is made that is final end off i like alot want the series to continue and will help out where i can

wrxbart
30th October 2013, 11:08
I will not be competing next year and have already said that I will help organising this with Steven IF it goes ahead. I will be impartial as not competing at all in any class. And don't really care what people think of me or my decisions lol.

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 11:27
Isnt this a bit too soon?

Stevens expressed his current feelings not made a decision to do or not do anything?

It was just an "if" Steven didn't want to do it Simon, due to work load or people issues. I'm sure the vast majority on here including myself would still want him involved :)

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 11:30
What about having separate class scrutineers?



Not a bad idea Matt, particularly if we can balance the classes a bit better. Anything that stops any one person being overwhelmed is a good idea.

TimH
30th October 2013, 11:33
What about having separate class scrutineers?


Not a bad idea Matt, particularly if we can balance the classes a bit better. Anything that stops any one person being overwhelmed is a good idea.
Although might suggest a competitor should not be the scrutineer for the class they are competing in?

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 11:34
Nice to see something positive, would love to help where possible.

Thanks Andy



I will not be competing next year and have already said that I will help organising this with Steven IF it goes ahead. I will be impartial as not competing at all in any class. And don't really care what people think of me or my decisions lol.

Nice one Rob. Perhaps we could have a tech panel of 3 for each class that consists of non class entrants to ensure no personal agenda accusations.
With a bit of structure about it we can remove a lot of the pain for Steven doing the actual event organisation.

Edit > Tim beat me to it!

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 11:44
I'll capture some of the key points made as an edit to post 1

Nathan Lockley
30th October 2013, 11:51
Lol at Matt...on doing S3....

Im honestly also willing to help in whatever way I can....

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 11:58
Thanks Nathan, I realise your previous thread was meant to be positive and do what we are (hoping to) do here (so don't start winding up Matt lol)

99% of the scrutineering should be the safety aspects anyway, if the regs are done properly people will know if they are legal or not but I appreciate that some people may not want their class competitors nosing round their cars in detail, particularly in S3 where anything goes ;)

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 12:16
I agree with andys idea of a panel to allow/disallow certain mods as its takes away the honest on 1 person once a decision is made that is final end off i like alot want the series to continue and will help out where i can



Top man Andy and thank you. Although I do have the chin for it, competing myself and totb duties I really don't think I could do it justice. Happy to help anywhere that is needed though.

Thanks guys and a jolly good job you do of TOTB Clive.

spd(john)
30th October 2013, 12:36
As ever would be willing to help in anyway needed for who ever run`s the series in 2014.

(I have no plans to enter the series in 2014)

mattybr5
30th October 2013, 13:11
Good to see things are looking on the bright side of things for a change and civil discussion to avoid all the nasties of this year.the committee sounds a good idea and would take a lot of pressure off Steven for the new year if he continues..

The scrutineers would this not be best to have someone who isn't taking part in the events to do this as a solo job for the day checking all classes but be a paid job for the time and effort I'm sure everyone wouldn't mind paying that bit extra to cover this cost to keep everything no bias towards any competitor

Also I'd do think it would be great for a week end event at least double the cars could enter on both sides and should easy some pressure on people trying to cram everything into one days event but that's just my thought

stockcar
30th October 2013, 13:14
offered assistance for 2013 and would happily get involved to a degree for 2014, not sure i have the time to be at events all over the country though

agreed and have previously suggested it that the rules should be specifically only changes that are listed to be allowed

Justin A
30th October 2013, 13:25
Happy to be part of a panel to decide reg changes for the classes outside my cars class

Matt R
30th October 2013, 13:41
One thing I would like to see and think is fair is previous years competitors have priority for places.

This was also brought up on MLR. I think people that have surported the series from day one should be given first refusal.

As on MLR. If someone is busy at work, on holiday, has family commitments, or simply can't get online for a couple of days, its unfair they miss out.

As we saw this year, it doesn't take long for 120 places over 6 events to fill up.

AndyH
30th October 2013, 14:22
Just an idea, but if you intend doing all events how about a registration fee to guarantee entry. The money raised could go towards prize money or expenses for officials. like I say just an idea.

Nathan Lockley
30th October 2013, 19:23
Agree with all points above...im here and willing as ive said to Steven before on Pm's. I'll be here always and at event always competing or not...thanks for seeing wat I was trying to do Andy...maybe I just wasn't the right person to start my thread about this..

Looking forward to 2014 helping out entering or just being ballast again...

mickywrx
30th October 2013, 20:15
One thing I would like to see and think is fair is previous years competitors have priority for places.

This was also brought up on MLR. I think people that have surported the series from day one should be given first refusal.

As on MLR. If someone is busy at work, on holiday, has family commitments, or simply can't get online for a couple of days, its unfair they miss out.

As we saw this year, it doesn't take long for 120 places over 6 events to fill up.

Whilst I agree with you Matt, that means there is no chance for anyone else to enter should everyone that previously has enters.

That's also unfair.

rooferman555
30th October 2013, 20:45
Problem is that as soon as the rounds become available you need to put a deposit on them straightaway.....

At least give those who have supported it from day one a chance to book the rounds they would like to do...

Maybe a maximum of 4 rounds would be an ideal start.

blackpoolrock
30th October 2013, 20:54
I don't want to take it off topic but how many drivers are actually looking to compleat next year ?

p555sbr
30th October 2013, 20:58
If the series gets the go ahead for next year i plan on doing every round

Matt R
30th October 2013, 21:02
2014 I'm only planning on doing 4 rounds.

rooferman555
30th October 2013, 21:02
Hoping to do 3 rounds next year.

And Teesside if I can get an invite.

AndyH
30th October 2013, 21:07
Hoping to do all rounds if possible.

toffee
30th October 2013, 21:15
Thanks for the thread Andy, I am hoping to get back in to a few sprints next year, I loved the 2012 season, had great times :cool: if I can help in anyway just let me know.

Stick
30th October 2013, 21:17
I will be looking to do all events this year. If not all, as many as possible given space.

mattybr5
30th October 2013, 21:19
We're hoping to enter all events next year in s3 class if possible

Andis
30th October 2013, 21:30
I would be looking to do all rounds but Kames, if possible.

Bez300
30th October 2013, 21:37
I will be looking at doing all rounds next year,
And willing to help anywhere I can,
I think once the classes have been set, then there would be no changes, especially after the 1st event,
Please don't take this wrong, anyone, but if you enter and you think your in a S1 car, but you have just one item that will put you in S2, the ether remove said item or go into S2,, same for S2 to S3
If it in the regs don't argu with srewt,

It would be good if we were helping Steve,

If anyone has concerns with other cars and classes they are in, mention it to the driver of the car, but with no fall outs,
This could be a quicker way to get things resolved,

But yes, will help in any way I can,

Bez

Stick
30th October 2013, 21:38
I would be looking to do all rounds but Kames, if possible.

A lot of tea buying possibly ;) LOL

David_Wallis
30th October 2013, 21:52
Maybe split the interest thread to a poll ??

sonic93
30th October 2013, 21:53
I'm hoping to do all next year. Agree with bez.

gussy
30th October 2013, 21:58
Im hoping to do a few next year dependant on getting my car finished no arguments on my part S3 anything goes, as for the other groups that is going to be a hard one and who ever takes it on is not going to please everyone having a panel of 3 would work as andy f has suggested the organisers decision should be final no arguments full stop.Would opening the classes adding a couple aid things?? as has been said earlier this type of series is the cheapest form of motorsport you will ever get it would be a shame to lose it,When I did the scoobychampionship a few years ago the amount of people that were going to compete in its second year was huge but unfortunately it never ran which was a shame and if you were to run the cars now under full MSA regs hardly anybody would compete I think that says it all,for this to be a goer everybody has to buy into it good or bad.

Andy.F
30th October 2013, 22:18
Ok guys, there is some light at the end of the tunnel :)
Had a chat with Steven today and he already had made a start to tweeking the regs to suit 2014. The plan is that 4 of us (Steven, John F, Rob and myself) will put our heads together to tidy up S1 and S2 technical regs, with the aim of balancing the numbers more evenly across all 3 classes. The regs will be published as soon as we are happy with them, this should allow time for any clarification to take place before the start of the season.

dbrad
30th October 2013, 22:19
Would like to do a couple of sprints but Time Attack will take priority. Anything I can do to help just ask. It's a fantastic series and I think it would be such a shame for it to stop.

Edited

Great news Andy :)

Matt R
30th October 2013, 22:26
S3, you should only be allowed to run 1 turbo and also, not 2 extra cylinders, if we're to stop these bloody cheats :D

banhama
30th October 2013, 22:29
Problem is that as soon as the rounds become available you need to put a deposit on them straightaway.....

At least give those who have supported it from day one a chance to book the rounds they would like to do...

Maybe a maximum of 4 rounds would be an ideal start.

Race series seem to have a pretty fair way of sorting entries....(if they are lucky enough to be oversubscribed)....Race 1, as soon as it becomes available he who gets his money down first gets to race. Race 2 anyone who has competed in race 1 gets priority up until the 'closing date', which is anything up to 2 weeks before the event, but as soon as that date is passed the earliest 'others' to have put their money down start to fill up the places. There is never a danger in putting down the cash, if you're not accepted it is returned or carried forward, your choice, if your car can't make it, same deal as long as you give enough notice for the place to be filled.
As the series progresses priority is always given to those who have competed in the most rounds, thereby keeeping the points battle at a peak.
If you've competed all season you will get into every round, if you dip out you take your chances.

Seems fair to me.

PS there's a trackday at Lydden on the 9th Adam, but I can probably only make the morning and it's pretty short notice for you to trek down here anyway. I think the first one in the new year will be February, how about a winter test day then? Kill our cars on the saturday then have a brew or 10 in a local hostelry...hostiliery...hostelthing.....Feck it...PUB!

Cheers, Andy

Dan Lewis
30th October 2013, 22:48
I have been holding back on posting here as i do think that Steven obviously needs time to get on with his life after this season has ended, before even considering another one.
Steven i would like to thank you for all the time, effort and cash you have put in to get the Sprint series up and running with the MLR
I think the sprint series has been a brilliant way of getting into affordable motorsport and with a relatively open class structure it is inclusive of most popular modifications.
It was certainly the first grass roots motorsport series that i had investigated that made sense for the car that i own and my wallet.

I plan on competing the whole series next year if it goes ahead, i have had a fantastic time the last two seasons and would be gutted if it was to stop.
I agree with John, that the rules are not that far off but a few tweeks would go a long way to help iron things out.
I do think though an independent scrutineer would be a good idea, ideally someone who is not racing or affiliated to a tuning company so can be seen to be impartial.

ScoobyDoo69
31st October 2013, 23:12
Just had a read of this thread and Nathan's thread. Really surprised at some of the responses, not so shocked at some of the others..

As already seen this year, I'm far from competitive in S2 and despite my minor tyre moment at Combe, have had a great time at all the events. Strangely, the most fun being at Combe :D

I do have to agree with a lot of the comments regarding S2. As has been said all year, the range of cars you can have in S2 is huge! Widening S1 sounds like a great idea, but then you can imagine those running very standard cars feeling a bit unhappy that they're against higher spec cars. Similar to S2 now I guess!

Personally I'll be entering no matter what class I fall into as I like my car the way it is and won't change it for 4-7 days a year!

So the only thing I'd like to see is people having more fun and enjoying it for what it is. Fun!

toffee
1st November 2013, 00:27
^^ good points dude, if someone has a car spec, lets say std, moving in to class 2 could be a huge jump. I have always thought that the classes should have a natural step up to the next class. So given whats acceptable in class 2 (2013 regs) class 1 should be a half way point to that level. In this way the eventual step up in class will not be such a large car spec jump in one winter.

fwiw, at Time Attack the only difference between class 1 and class 2 is the fuels that can be run, everything else is the same. the next step up is similar to here, class 3 anything goes!! :D

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 08:16
Not sure if this is the best way to gauge interest but how many S2 guys would consider moving to S1 and what mods would you like to see allowed in that class?
Also to the majority of S2 guys, what mods would you like to see taken out of your class and moved into S3 to level the playing field a bit? PM if preferred.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 08:25
fwiw, at Time Attack the only difference between class 1 and class 2 is the fuels that can be run, everything else is the same. the next step up is similar to here, class 3 anything goes!! :D

The only difference to class 3 is tyres, anything goes in TA full stop :D They don't really have an 'entry class' when you can run full lightweight panels, dog boxes, perspex, aero and 800bhp in club lol

MAD Hammer
1st November 2013, 08:38
With only 2 cars competing for the championship in S1 this year I think we should allow half of the cars in S2 to move down. I know it's harder to police but surely a 400bhp ish limit in S1 along with allowing brakes, coilovers, stripped interiors and cages etc would be the way to go.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 08:46
How do you suggest policing the power limits Clive? There is already a lot of trust involved that competitors are not flowing their injectors and hybriding their turbos. We don't really want to be getting involved in stripping cars. MLR have a boost limit which seems to work for them though.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 08:52
What about 1.5 bar limit for s1 & 1.8 for s2 on petrol station pumped fuel as a start ?

MAD Hammer
1st November 2013, 09:06
Yeah the boost limit is a good idea. I think with only say a max of 7 ish in each class we can keep an eye on what turbos are being run in S1. If people try and cheat and are found out they are excluded. There must be a eliminate of trust on this.

I would prefer not to go the fuel route as it is harder still to police as would would have to pay for testing. A lot use and have been mapped with meth so lets not ban that. But 1.5 for S1 and 1.8 for S2 would work would it not ? We may have to limit S2 to no bigger than 30r turbos.

ScoobyDoo69
1st November 2013, 09:09
I had a thought this morning along the lines of a points system. The reason behind my thinking of points is that most people these days for example have coilovers, arbs etc. So if you have say 10 points for coilovers, 10 for intercoolers, 5 for ARBs etc?

So how about a points limit in S1 whereby you can run anything (within a set range of mods) up to a set amount of points before you're put into S2? Then have S2 governed by similar rules to now and similar for S3.

Let's say you're allowed 75 modification points and the ratings are something like below (obviously this is just random figures)

Engine:
Stock turbo for said MY car: 0 points
Stock TD or VF from another MY car: 10 points
Boost levels up to 1.2 bar: 0 points
Boost levels up to 1.6 bar: 5 points
Stock injectors: 0 points
Injectors upto 550: 5 points
FPR set to higher pressure: 5 points
Exhaust system: 0 points
Induction: 5 points
Stock TMIC for MY car: 0 points
TMIC from another MY car: 0 points
FMIC: 5 points

Fuel:
Pump fuel: 0 points
Pump fuel with additives: 5 points
Pump fuel with meth or similar: 10 points
Race fuel: 15 points

Chassis:
Coilovers: 10 points
Strut braces: 0 points
ARBs & links: 5 points
Brakes from MY car: 0 points
Brakes from other MY car: 5 points
Aftermarket brakes over 300mm: 10 points
Max tyre size 235 width

Interior:
Full interior: 0 points
Partial interior removal (rear seats, bootlining etc): 0 points
Buckets/harnesses: 5 points

And it could go on and on and on.... again this would just be for S1 cars. S2 cars could have new rules to limit their capability in some ways?

Just my 2pence.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 09:11
I'd put all twisted in s3 & go the trust route for s1 up to 400bhp , between the mappers it should possible to list turbos that would support 400 & below @ 1.5 bar and all other turbos that are standard position in s2
That's my thoughts and only my thoughts

Matt R
1st November 2013, 09:17
Thought S1 was standard cars and also a way of totally minimising cost?

Its not fair that Felly (for example) has to compete with Justin's or Paul's car but its also unfair to the have Si and Dave trying to compete with Felly.

I guess there is no easy answer and its going to take compromise in both directions.

BIG FUD
1st November 2013, 09:19
s1

Built engine but not above its original cc
any turbo except rotated
adj suspension
99 fuel only
no launch or a/l
full interior and body from factory.
Brakes factory calipers, But uprated discs -pads
Tyre's i think are almost if not bang on.

All cars should run fire safety hand held min.

Justin A
1st November 2013, 09:24
I suggested a more open S1 class a few seasons back. Generally regarding turbos gearboxes and brakes they have to be oe for that bodyshell, so no brembos on a classic, no twinscroll on a classic etc . Engine, manifolds intercoolers coil overs all free.

Justin A
1st November 2013, 09:28
Expanding on that full interiors and swirlpot and pump allowed

mattybr5
1st November 2013, 09:41
more classes needed by the looks as any decision isn't going to please everyone and people who are running less power than others are always going to complain but as Paul/chevron proved this year its not all about power maybe set boost limit and sensible suspension/brake mods in s1 will widen the amount of people able to enter s1

s2 was by far the most competitive this year and some cars should have run in s1 I feel but there was some good sport in s2 so that wouldn't need tweaking to much I feel

s3 no one has said much about this apart from anything goes pretty much so that's sorted

ScoobyDoo69
1st November 2013, 09:46
I think more than 3 classes is overkill for our 20 cars. I think most are right here in that there needs to be more in S1, but as we know hardly anyone has a non modified Subaru so the S1 rules need adjusting.

Dan Lewis
1st November 2013, 10:04
More classes means more work scrutineering and more trophies which means more cost. I think for the amount of entrants we have three classes is the correct amount.
We all seem to be agreeing that S1 needs to have a broader catchment to spread the field of cars out a bit.

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 10:08
I disagree completely that S3 should be anything goes. You need some clearly defined limits so that it's not simply a battle of wallets OR a battle of outright cheekyness!

For example, what's to stop someone turning up with a proper race car with a Subaru VIN and annihilating everyone? It's obviously outside the spirit of the series, so the rules need to reflect that.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 10:11
I disagree completely that S3 should be anything goes. You need some clearly defined limits so that it's not simply a battle of wallets OR a battle of outright cheekyness!

For example, what's to stop someone turning up with a proper race car with a Subaru VIN and annihilating everyone? It's obviously outside the spirit of the series, so the rules need to reflect that.

totally agree with you

rooferman555
1st November 2013, 10:53
From what the mlr organiser I spoke to they are looking at making the series bigger overall anyway, with more cars running.

So maybe there will be space for more than 20 subarus competing.

ScoobyDoo69
1st November 2013, 10:56
Starting things on time and running a bit later would help with the amount of runners / runs actually!

Should be a solid 9am start on the track, finish at 5 IMO. We get more like 10-4 with however long a lunch.

rooferman555
1st November 2013, 12:43
I think the lower end of the s2 cars need going into s1


If you look at the top end of s2 it was really close between the top 4 to 5 runners...

Paulo, Justin, Andy Hughs and me swapped finishing positions constantly through the year....with John f and dan lewis not far behind.

To move the top of s2 would mean 4-5 cars all going up into s3



I don't mind which class I go in as would of still done fairly well in s3 a couple of rounds....:)

sonic93
1st November 2013, 13:28
Thought S1 was standard cars and also a way of totally minimising cost?

Its not fair that Felly (for example) has to compete with Justin's or Paul's car but its also unfair to the have Si and Dave trying to compete with Felly.

I guess there is no easy answer and its going to take compromise in both directions.

Why would it be unfair for Justin to compete against felstead?

2pot
1st November 2013, 13:34
In the hope that superfically daft suggestions, can lead to solutions: Assuming fuel cells are only allowed in s3 - What about trying to even out the classics weight advantage, in s1 and/or s2, by making them start the day with a brimmed full fuel tank? And, limiting classic wheel diameter, in s1 and/or s2, to 17's - giving the later, heavy cars, on 18's, a brake diameter advantage?

Matt R
1st November 2013, 13:45
Because Justin, like Paulo, Adam, & Andy, has more of a track focused car.

Felly's is a 100% DD road car. As we've seen this year John simply can't compete against them. Do you honestly think of you put John in Paulo's car that would remain the case?

Justin A
1st November 2013, 13:47
I think the inter marque rules for S1 would effectively do this, if the classics were allowed oe 4 pots only and the newages thr brembos etc. Short engines could be free but only avcs heads on the newages to give a better spread of power. Sks with the oe for marque turbo rule you have effectively 340 hp for clasics versus a bit more for the best newage oe turbos

Justin A
1st November 2013, 13:53
I was joking with john after teeside that I won the non trailer championship ;)

My car lost its dsily driver duties for last season but of course in msa roadgoing spec it is a complete full working interior car, just no stereo or aircon

Matt R
1st November 2013, 13:56
Probably a silly idea but what if you could give people like John and Dan a handicapped start of - a few seconds. At least they could remain in class and be competitive. John lumps around a extra 200 kg's and Dan goes around with 150 less hp.

Doesn't affect me either way tbh so I'm not being difficult. Just throwing ideas out there which could potentially even the playing field.

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 14:01
Bop

rooferman555
1st November 2013, 14:04
I think the point is you will always have a top and bottom series of cars in each class.



We just need to put the lower half of cars in s1 ...


Mlr do it by capping boost levels .

mattybr5
1st November 2013, 14:15
Surely the likes if John and anyone who is entering full weight cars that are used as there daily driver etc are more in it for the fun if they was in it to win they would be stripping cars to bare min the taking part in the series for most is all that matters surely the rules cannot be changed to much to suit the few daily used cars??

MAD Hammer
1st November 2013, 14:17
Stop concerning yourselves with individuals. My simple suggestion on the last page and CJs original suggestion of boost limits is a good starting place IMO and a few others it seems.

sonic93
1st November 2013, 14:27
Surely the likes if John and anyone who is entering full weight cars that are used as there daily driver etc are more in it for the fun if they was in it to win they would be stripping cars to bare min the taking part in the series for most is all that matters surely the rules cannot be changed to much to suit the few daily used cars??

Totally agree with Matty

Dan Lewis
1st November 2013, 14:35
As much as the helping hand would be nice Matt i do agree with Matty, you cant tailor the rules to help out individuals.
It just makes it even more fun when i do beat you anyway :)

Matt R
1st November 2013, 14:44
As I said, makes no difference to me at all. Hopefully you guys can come up with something that suits the majority of runners in s1 & s2.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 15:09
Do we think there is a need to cap boost in S2? As previously mentioned, it was pretty close run this season at the top of S2.

How many would it bump up if all twisted or external wastegated turbos were in S3 ?

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 15:13
I disagree completely that S3 should be anything goes. You need some clearly defined limits so that it's not simply a battle of wallets OR a battle of outright cheekyness!

For example, what's to stop someone turning up with a proper race car with a Subaru VIN and annihilating everyone? It's obviously outside the spirit of the series, so the rules need to reflect that.

I agree, its a bit wide open like Time Attack where an OEM Blue oval badge turned up and showed them how its done (in CP lol)

shawy1976
1st November 2013, 15:21
You can't cater for everyone . Make it simple s1 non rotated turbo no added fuels pump only . Full trim etc ...
S2 anything except lightweight glass ,widearch , lightweight panels etc tyre restrictions

S3 prettymuch anything ..

Matt R
1st November 2013, 15:32
Do we think there is a need to cap boost in S2? As previously mentioned, it was pretty close run this season at the top of S2.

How many would it bump up if all twisted or external wastegated turbos were in S3 ?

The top end of s2 are usually quicker than everyone in s3 bar Andy. Maybe some of s2 need bumping up into s3 rather than some of s2 going into s1?

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 15:42
I can think of a number of S3 spec cars out there (from this BBS) that would be well ahead of the top S2 cars, had they entered.

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 15:46
Cap boost in s2?

So that would mean that you could have a performance advantage by doing ported heads and wild cams, which puts the advantage in the hands of those with more money to spend.

The problem with many regulations in motorsport to keep the performance the same, is that they mean that more and more money is required to make smaller and smaller gains. So for the sprint series, a method needs to be found of restricting the performance rather than the spec, so that no matter what you spend your engine performance isn't going to be massively apart.

Drag racing use approved turbos in some classes, with specific compressor wheels or a maximum size. Weight limits are also worth considering as that will move away from spending more money to gain performance.

shawy1976
1st November 2013, 16:01
If u wanna make it equal there's needs to be s1 s2 s3 s4 otherewise s2 will be crammed

shawy1976
1st November 2013, 16:14
S1 real mot passes
S2 road cars with aftermarket turbos standard fit meths etc
S3 rotated turbos
S4 race cars

Obviously needs to be more than 20 cars

rooferman555
1st November 2013, 16:20
Think it was only me and Andy huges running twisted kits.

But then they didn't prove to be quicker on the tighter circuits.

Teesside was definatwly costing me time due to spool....

shawy1976
1st November 2013, 16:58
Bigger engine sir ....
End of the day your wallet dictates in most cases .from memory your running a 2 litre odb. 2.1 cdb and you would probably be champion now more boost better spool...

MAD Hammer
1st November 2013, 17:06
I think rotated 30s should be in s2. No way would I for example be able to compete with my car in s3. Still if they are, they are its more fun for me. Drag is where it's really at :D

C. J.
1st November 2013, 17:19
I'm only on a 30 so can I go in s2 :D

braveheart_sti
1st November 2013, 17:23
a power / weight restriction would help , ie lesser experienced drivers would be gaining more time on more experienced drivers due to the power / weight difference alone .... in the same class so to speak which is where funds etc would allow an advantage over driver skill etc

would need to be more classes ( like 4 as said above ) to make it fair enough

fuel type , tyre type etc also in with power and weight for each class also .....

no matter what there will probably always be someone who aint happy lol :D

p555sbr
1st November 2013, 17:38
s1 in my eyes
full road trim
standard cc for make and model ie classic/newage
standard fit turbo max 1.5bar boost
standard gearbox for make and model no drop in gear kits ie classic/newage
drop in fuel pump only
max 99ron fuel
msa 1a or 1b tyres
aftermarket adjustable suspension ie coilovers
maximum 330mm brakes
fuel pressure capped to 3.2 bar static
possibly allow after market ecu but no al/lc

I think if you allowed coilovers and max 330 brakes in s1 you would get a lot more entries as they are popular mods for a lot of cars but then the ome ecu could cause problems for some

s2 is ok but limit it to stock positioned turbo or if rotated with a boost cap of say 1.8bar

this should allow a few more cars to drop into s1 and a couple move up to s3

if the series is to go which I really hope is does it would help a lot of people if they were made available as soon as possible if there is to be some big changes

mattybr5
1st November 2013, 18:52
The feeling to many cooks in one kitchen comes to mind the idea of a well selected committee who have a good knowledge of what would be best for the series should be the ones who comes up with the rules to suit what they all think is suitable for each class to make it competive yet as fair as possible

Once selected rules and published anyone entering the series ether sorts there car for the class they want to enter if it does not it pass scrutineering on the day it goes in the class the non bias scrutineer feels is best for the modifications

gussy
1st November 2013, 19:02
Agree with you on this one Matty as i said earlier the selected committee should/will have the final say no arguments and as competitors should abide by their decisions either for the class or on the day

mattybr5
1st November 2013, 19:05
I'm on a roll today :) also glad if andy was on the comittee so they don't ban eg33 and twin turbo set ups:)

Arch
1st November 2013, 19:08
The top end of s2 are usually quicker than everyone in s3 bar Andy.

:popcorn:

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 19:10
The feeling to many cooks in one kitchen comes to mind the idea of a well selected committee who have a good knowledge of what would be best for the series should be the ones who comes up with the rules to suit what they all think is suitable for each class to make it competive yet as fair as possible


That is the case Matty, I was just asking for input from the competitors, past, current and future. There may be some great ideas out there that none of us have thought of!
Steven, John F, Rob W and myself will get together and sort through all the information and the changes will be public as soon as possible.

mattybr5
1st November 2013, 19:20
Ok thinking out the box a dedicated burger bar for breaky and dinner would be my ideal addition :)


On a serious note tho has anyone thought how much the series has grown over the years with the amount of sponsors both mlr and 22b side it's getting bigger and bigger alot more people are wanting to join in each year is there any plans to expand the series or stick to small number and stick to the way it is..I was very impressed this year being the first sprints I attended all looks very professionally set up etc and alot of hard work gone into it if it continues and grows what's it stopping getting to the status if say time attack or simlier big events these money to be made for some people and alot of fun for people entering its just a shame it's only around 20 subaru's and x amount of evo's there be alot of disappointed members when the events go on sale again

p555sbr
1st November 2013, 19:48
just a suggestion but would it be a good idea to have a thread specifically for asking if you can do xyz ie simply ask if you can do xyz then when the committee have made a decision they post with yes or no and keep the posts to ask a question then wait for the answer that way its available for others thinking about the same mod saves on pms all the time and stops the I was told I couldn't do that but they can if you get what I mean

ScoobyDoo69
1st November 2013, 20:01
I say keep this thread going for some sensible ideas for the committee to keep referring to. I don't believe that these decisions should be made quickly and ultimately there are still going to be some people upset. But I'm very much looking forward to seeing how they have used our ideas and their own ideas together for a new set of rules. :)

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 20:16
Starting things on time and running a bit later would help with the amount of runners / runs actually!

Should be a solid 9am start on the track, finish at 5 IMO. We get more like 10-4 with however long a lunch.

I'm with you on that one, although there may be noise regs/running times to contend with there. That aside, it would allow more cars to run but still the same number of runs for all.
More cars = more for the organisers so I'm sure they wont mind getting out of bed a bit earlier ;) Maybe instead of 45 Evos and 20 Imprezas, we can have more like 50 Evos and 30 Imprezas?

toffee
1st November 2013, 20:18
They don't really have an 'entry class' when you can run full lightweight panels, dog boxes, perspex, aero and 800bhp in club lol

Great isnt it :)

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 20:21
Great isnt it :)

Not for numbers competing though :(

mickywrx
1st November 2013, 20:22
s1 in my eyes
full road trim

Define full road trim. My car is a proper daily driver, but has no carpet, no boot trim, and most of the year no rear seats. I do have mats though. :D


standard fit turbo max 1.5bar boost
standard gearbox for make and model no drop in gear kits ie classic/newage

That rules out early cars, they'll be doing TY752's at every event. I've done 2 with 1 bar of boost, on a TD05.


drop in fuel pump only

fuel pressure capped to 3.2 bar static

I'm assuming you mean not swirl pots, external 044's etc but allowing and adjustable FPR.

toffee
1st November 2013, 20:30
Not for numbers competing though :(

only playing ;)

On a more serious note... I have just read from page 3 to the end and it looks like your getting there guys, the details need agreeing by the committee. I think everyone agrees that class 2 was to big, class 1 rules need opening up so more std cars from S2 can go in S1, the trick now is to let good spec cars run in S2 without stepping over the mark and being placed against race cars in S3.

Its a great series so looking forward to 2014 :cool:

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 20:32
I personally don't see an issue with classics using any OE 5 speed, in fact I'd say there is no performance advantage to be gained using a 6 speed around 350bhp on a classic, probably quicker on a 5sp.

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 20:41
In order to balance S1, might I suggest specific rules for specific years of car? It's already been talked about like that so far, and yes I realise it means a lot of text, but for anyone that looks at the regs they only have to consider the rules for the year of car they have. For example, classic in S1 could be restricted to any turbo within a range so that those cars with TD04 as standard can run an STI equivalent turbo. Some cars will need to be given quite a free reign, like injectors, turbo and perhaps a better OEM intercooler and later 4pot OEM brakes, whereas a good newage has good brakes available as stock to make up for increased weight, STIs have avcs and some cars have bigger turbos and increased capacity (ie hatch) so they might need to be give n very little room for anything at all.

That way people can compete on a more equal footing and some S2 cars can now get into S1 and still have fun.

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 21:10
It's good to get everyones thoughts on this, as I said elsewhere, the current rules aren't too far off as they are.

The real question is what do we wish to achieve by altering the classes, if the goal is to have a more even spread of cars in the classes, then there is going to have to be some movement up on S1 class specs that does allow some current S2 spec cars to drop down with minor changes to spec. S2 is far too close to S3 unless you allow some movement down so the lower end S2 cars can run elsewhere.

There are different types of car owners that still wish to have some fun competitive driving series to run in, some of us do want to have a go in our daily drivers, but dont want to have to tear them to pieces to be able to compete, as doing that makes the car horrible to live with. For example mine is a genuine daily driven car that's done over 13K miles this year, it's full weight with nothing stripped out. Owners like me cant afford the time or money to have a dedicated competition car.

If you wish to save people money on tyres for s1, then List 1B is no good, for example I would spend more money running Kumho V70's than I would rally slicks, the car is too heavy for the V70's and they are shot after one round, where as the rally slicks will do all season. So you are better either limiting it to List 1A so no one has to buy extra wheels/tyres, or allow rally slicks for S1 run to the same regs as S2. My own feeling is allow rally slicks for S1, as most S1 runners will be buying extra new tyres anyway, and there will be no cost saving going for a good list 1A tyre over a rally slick. It will allow S1 runners to compete more with S2 cars and give them a hard time, just as the top S2 cars do with S3 right now. It will add a bit more fun and banter IMHO.

Most cars that would fit into a higher spec S1 class would be fitted with FMIC already, so I think aftermarket TMIC or FMIC would be practical to allow the current lower pace S2 cars to drop down to S1. If you limit it to OEM TMIC only then you wont get the cars moving down a class. The entry numbers for current S1 is too small and the cost of moving to S2 is too great for budget racers, so a broader S1 class still allows cheap entry level cars, but they will be able to develop over time without moving up to S2 spec and the costs to be competitive there it would take. It was quite amusing to see the S1 cars trailered to the events, we should not allow S1 trailer jockeys, S2 and S3 only.

Boost limits are doable in S1, not needed for S2. I think 1.5BAR is far too low for S1 (MLR have a 1.7BAR limit for class A, 1.9BAR limit for class B), a newage needs a bit more poke than that to be able to compete with a Classic, I would think something like 1.8BAR would make more sense, you can run more than that safely on a stock VF37 for example. It's also going to see people less likely to trigger an overboost reading.

Fuels wise, I'd like to see S3 and S2 having free fuel, it's far too expensive to police ( a single test for over 100RON is 200 and with 20% methanol mix the RON value of genuine pump fuel will be well over 100RON anyway), so lets let the S2 guys do what they want on that. There is too much money already invested in higher spec engines in this class to try limit it now. S1 should be forecourt super unleaded with an octane booster, this way if we wished to, we could get an S1 competitor to put a batch of fuel in their car at the start of an event supplied by the organisor, so no need to pay for testing (which, lets face it is never going to happen so it's far too open to cheating and accusations of skulduggery).

Engine size wise, it's pretty common to see 2.1 builds now, plus we already have newage cars with 2.5 litre stock engine sizes, so if we limit the boost levels and fuels in S1, then it shouldn't be much of a problem with a 2.1 engine being run. 2.35 litre we all know are expensive builds, so these should be S2/3 only.

Turbos, S1 would be stock position only, with stock headers and up pipe with a boost limit as above. S2 can be rotated or stock position with no limit on boost.

Brakes, S1 should be stock disk size and calipers type for model type (classic, newage). S2 should be max 256mm disk with free calipers. S3 free.

Wheel size, S1 and s2 stock for the model type, so max 16"x7" classic, max 18"x8" newage, max 18"x8.5" Hatch and so on. S3 free.

Bodywork arches for S1 and S2 should be stock, so no pulling the arches out to allow wider track, if you want wider track move to S3. To police that there should be a maximum arch width value for a classic, newage and hatch front and rear which can be taken from unmolested cars. This will be easy to police and check yourself prior to an event. This way we don't have to get into measuring the offset of wheels. The cars will also look better, cars with puled arches look nasty. :D

These are a few of my thoughts on this, lots more areas not covered above but you should be able to see the gist of where I am going. As stated the specs will all be debated by Steven, Andy, Rob and myself so do keep the ideas coming. My goal for this is to end up with regulations that make sense in terms of being practical for the cars already out there, allow god competition between like types of cars, plus give some sensible steps upwards in terms of developing cars on sensible budgets and time scales if that's what you wish to do.

mickywrx
1st November 2013, 21:11
That's kind of what I think the chap I quoted meant, Andy. I don't know his name, sorry. :)

That makes sense, Paul. Where would it put FMIC's on classics though?

mickywrx
1st November 2013, 21:18
Wheel size, S1 and s2 stock for the model type, so max 16"x7" classic, max 18"x8" newage, max 18"x8.5" Hatch and so on. S3 free.

I couldn't even use my winter use TSW Venoms at that size. :D How many classics do you think run around on 16's John? Not many I guess.

My daily wheels are 17x7.5.

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 21:21
You are probably right there Micky. 17x7.5 would make more sense for a classic as a max.

p555sbr
1st November 2013, 21:23
to be fair john them rules suit me bar 1 I trailer my s1 car for peace of mind if I have a bad off I can which can and does happen I can still get home most tracks are 4hour drives for me and the last thing I want is for me and my son to try and figure out how to get a wrecked car home on a side note I thought rally slicks where classed as 1b tyres

Bez300
1st November 2013, 21:27
I still don't think the classes are too far out now,
It does appear that there are some of the s2 cars faster than the S3 cars,
As AndyF says, if there were the higher power scoobs that are out there, entering, then this would start to seperate S2 and S3 more,
And even push towards AndyF,
4 classes is the way, but I think this would only work with more cars entering,
There are a great number of great ideas, I am sure the 4 on the comity will come up with great classes,
But I am glad I am in S3' but will be stepping up my game, I will have to, to keep in front of S2guys
I still think rollcage and full harnesses should be alowed in all classes, as this would encourage saftey,

Thanks

Bez

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 21:27
OK, I see what you are saying there with regards to the trailer use.

Rally slicks are not MSA listed tyres.

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 21:31
I still think rollcage and full harnesses should be alowed in all classes, as this would encourage saftey,

Thanks

Bez

They already are Bez, the only stipulation is S1 and S2 can be 6 point cages only. If we have a wider s1 class then maybe the 6 point only rule for S2 could be looked at. The main reason to limit to a 6 point cage is to stop it stiffening the shell to a point it gives a big advantage to that car over other S2 none caged cars.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 21:32
Cages is a good idea bez. As John says all ready in. There are some good ideas on here and I'm looking at them all.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 21:39
We've got to be careful as the rules need tweaking not changing, if we change to much then we are going to end up re writing the whole lot!!!

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 21:46
If it needs it, we can do it Rob. But as said we aren't a million miles off already.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 21:48
No were not,iv sent a email to you John as cant get on to send a post in the drop box at mo.

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 21:48
You probably need to be more careful that you might think with all this. The classes only need tweaking when you look at who entered and with what car this year, but you need to be sure you don't leave a gaping hole in the rules ready to be exploited.

I already see John lining himself up in S1 with turbo and intercooler that costs more than the current S1 cars cost to buy last year!

p555sbr
1st November 2013, 21:52
I already see John lining himself up in S1 with turbo and intercooler that costs more than the current S1 cars cost to buy last year!

bring it on :biggrinjester:

mattybr5
1st November 2013, 21:52
Good to see everyone getting on and thinking what's best for the series the more impreza allowed in sounds one of the best additions some mods that can and cannot be used in set classes sound like a nightmare for the poor person who has to go around checking every car tho

MAD Hammer
1st November 2013, 21:56
I really think any cage should go in s2. Mine and Andy's are still bolt in jobs and they put us s3 !

SleeperSy
1st November 2013, 21:56
My 2 cents

S1 has not had any problems this year.

No arguing or bitching about rules, no problems with each other.

It was the closest run class of All MLR SS classes including EVOs.

Equal points for the championship leaders going into the final - and on the last but one run equal times set to the nearest 100th.

Leave S1 alone - its cheap close racing.

If there are problems in other classes - sort that class out. Or buy or modify your car to another class.

Yes there was small numbers in S1, but that may change next year. The longer you leave the rules alone, the more people will get involved and the class will build.

There is no problem in S1 - leave it alone.


Sy

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 21:57
I don't think we can have certain rules for classic and diff for newage

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:00
My 2 cents

S1 has not had any problems this year.

No arguing or bitching about rules, no problems with each other.

It was the closest run class of All MLR SS classes including EVOs.

Equal points for the championship leaders going into the final - and on the last but one run equal times set to the nearest 100th.

Leave S1 alone - its cheap close racing.

If there are problems in other classes - sort that class out. Or buy or modify your car to another class.

Yes there was small numbers in S1, but that may change next year. The longer you leave the rules alone, the more people will get involved and the class will build.

There is no problem in S1 - leave it alone.


Sy

I agree with a lot of what you say Sy but it could have a couple of minor changes which would not affect it.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 22:01
On limiting boost in s1 to 1.5 bar is about all I'd want to run on a standard classic engine .
1.8bar on a newage sti standard engine if you want it to last .
That way people with small budgets have engine options that don't cost the earth .

C. J.
1st November 2013, 22:02
I really think any cage should go in s2. Mine and Andy's are still bolt in jobs and they put us s3 !

Same as I have a weld in but only 6 point

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:08
[QUOTE=C. J.;402442]On limiting boost in s1 to 1.5 bar is about all I'd want to run on a standard classic engine .
1.8bar on a newage sti standard engine if you want it to last .
That way people with small budgets have engine options that don't cost the earth .[/QUOTE

If going for a boost limit it has to be the same for all cars in the given class you can't have 1.5 classic and 1.8 newage in say S1

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:09
You probably need to be more careful that you might think with all this. The classes only need tweaking when you look at who entered and with what car this year, but you need to be sure you don't leave a gaping hole in the rules ready to be exploited.

I already see John lining himself up in S1 with turbo and intercooler that costs more than the current S1 cars cost to buy last year!

If you read what I wrote Paul, you'll see I'm lining myself up to lose about 100Lbft and 40BHP. I've already bought the parts, doesn't stop me detuning them to a level that's fair for the other competitors.

But it's not about me, I'm part of a group and the other three will make sure there wont be any bias towards me. :) I'm far more interested in making decisions that will work for the benefit of all long term, I may not even run next year and pre the development of this committee, I offered Steven help with the series in 2014 on the basis I didn't run in the series at all, so people couldn't complain about any bias.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:11
Boost limit of 1.8 bar in S1 on std engine, injectors and turbos? You would be as well with no boost limit! The only car that would benefit is a JDM twin scroll Sti.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 22:13
[QUOTE=C. J.;402442]On limiting boost in s1 to 1.5 bar is about all I'd want to run on a standard classic engine .
1.8bar on a newage sti standard engine if you want it to last .
That way people with small budgets have engine options that don't cost the earth .[/QUOTE

If going for a boost limit it has to be the same for all cars in the given class you can't have 1.5 classic and 1.8 newage in say S1
That's why I'm saying 1.5 for S1
1.8 for S2

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:14
We wont be limiting it to stock injectors or engine sizes if S1 goes up in Spec Andy. If we are then most low spec S2 cars are out.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:14
Would have to be a sensible boost limit!!!! Lol

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:14
My understanding of S1 is somewhere that a fairly standard car will be competitive.

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:15
Then forget moving any cars from S2 Andy.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 22:16
What about 1.5 bar limit for s1 & 1.8 for s2 on petrol station pumped fuel as a start ?

As on page 3

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:17
I think we need to keep std injectors and turbos in S1, just free off some of the suspension and brake regs, maybe tyres as well.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:18
S1 can be changed slightly but IMO it shouldn't be changing engine size inj size etc etc it should be subtle changes.

Bez300
1st November 2013, 22:19
My car,
Std position turbo
750cc injectors,
330mm discs
1.5 bar max boost,
Top mount intercooler,
17" wheels
Std ecu with map,
Some say this could be S1

My Nos and X22s would put e in S3

We do need to be careful of some class spec

Happy about cages,

Bez

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:20
OK, then I think you can forget any S2 cars moving down a class then.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:21
I think we need to keep std injectors and turbos in S1, just free off some of the suspension and brake regs, maybe tyres as well.


I agree maybe coilovers but with std top mounts and maybe standard brake upgrade like brembo. If you go to msa 1b tyres it starts to get expensive for s1

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 22:21
I don't think we can have certain rules for classic and diff for newage

You absolutely can, and you should, otherwise the standard classes will be dominated by whatever year of car happens to give the best yield of the rules. There are many examples of where different specs of car adhere to slightly different rules in order for the overall performance to be roughly the same.

You don't see it right now because of the slim entries in S1 so far, which is really where this applies. The problem is to judge the rules so that the various cars are equal at the start of the season, and if not at the start, certainly within a round or two.

All it takes is someone to have an imaginative take on "standard position turbo" and before you know it you have a 1350kg newage with big brakes, great chassis from the factory, on 18x8 wheels and tyres with 550hp competing against a really standard classic that can't run more than 350hp before it craps out it's box trying to stop on 4pots skinny tyres to fit under it's unflared arches.

Do not be so naive to think that people will not look for the weakest elements of the rules and exploit them by buying a car to suit rather than just using what they have. S1 is going to be hard to regulate I realise, but proper thought needs to be applied. The very fastest car that you might envisage in S1 needs to be comparable with something that starts off as a standard 1993 car. Someone with an old classic whose only real benefit is light weight needs to be able to complete in S1 with someone with a modern newage with all the benefits that brings like brakes, suspension (if stock is retained) chassis stiffness, AVCS, roller bearing turbo (JDM), twinscroll(JDM), 2.5 engine(uk), better intercooler.

If the rules are to be changed so that some of the slowest S2 cars end up in S1, at least do it properly so everyone has a good time.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:24
That's why I'm saying 1.5 for S1
1.8 for S2

The problem with the boost limit in S2 CJ is as Paul mentioned earlier, you can throw lots of money at an engine and it will make big power at 1.8 bar, running to high rpm on a billet 35/42 hybrid or similar you are still looking at close to 700bhp.

I'm warming to the idea of all rotated in S3, no boost limit on any std location turbo in S2.

John, S1 is already picking up, if you change it in a big way, you may chase the current cars.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:27
All it takes is someone to have an imaginative take on "standard position turbo" and before you know it you have a 1350kg newage with big brakes, great chassis from the factory, on 18x8 wheels and tyres with 550hp
.

Not on std injectors at std fuel pressure Paul !!

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:28
What we need to clarify is what do we want the various classes to target. Unless you open up S1, nothing from S2 can move. We are then back to having a massive S2 class with a big jump from S1 to S2. There is a lot of focus on engines, when in reality most of the pace change comes from weight and suspension.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:28
I can see your point Paul, but like iv said what would be quicker a standard newage with S1 mods or a classic with S1 mods that I suggested ie brembo's coilovers and a standard Subaru turbo no matter what yr it's off

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:29
It would cap newage around 400bhp and classics around 350bhp which is reasonable considering the weight difference.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:31
There is a lot of focus on engines, when in reality most of the pace change comes from weight and suspension.
Thats why I'd suggest coilovers and bigger brakes in S1

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:31
That's me out of S1 then. :D

How do you propose to cap newage to 400BHP? you cant do it by looking at the turbo.

C. J.
1st November 2013, 22:31
The problem with the boost limit in S2 CJ is as Paul mentioned earlier, you can throw lots of money at an engine and it will make big power at 1.8 bar, running to high rpm on a billet 35/42 hybrid or similar you are still looking at close to 700bhp.

I'm warming to the idea of all rotated in S3, no boost limit on any std location turbo in S2.

John, S1 is already picking up, if you change it in a big way, you may chase the current cars.
But surely people would go s3 rather than spend loads on a engine at this level of Motorsport ?

TimH
1st November 2013, 22:31
Is boost easy to police?

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:32
Yes Tim

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:34
I'm warming to the idea of all rotated in S3, no boost limit on any std location turbo in S2.



So am I Andy, if you wish to keep S1 a lower spec than I was thinking we needed.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:35
That's me out of S1 then. :D

How do you propose to cap newage to 400BHP? you cant do it by looking at the turbo.

Std injectors and fuel pressure

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:36
Easy enough then.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:37
Yes rotated S3 sounds a good idea to me too.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:37
But surely people would go s3 rather than spend loads on a engine at this level of Motorsport ?

You would hope so......but there's a fair bit money in some of the Evo engines out there so its only a matter of time.

TimH
1st November 2013, 22:37
Is boost easy to police?


Yes TimEven allowing for switchable maps etc? I guess there are inexpensive loggers that can be fitted during a run?

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:38
It would cap newage around 400bhp and classics around 350bhp which is reasonable considering the weight difference.

Yes that's my thinking too.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:38
Even allowing for switchable maps etc? I guess there are inexpensive loggers that can be fitted during a run?

Or a small peak boost gauge as the mlr use

Matt R
1st November 2013, 22:40
Personally I think it's more of a case of some of the s2 cars being moved up to s3 rather than some being moved down to s1

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:40
The MLR fit boost gauges that register a max reading under the bonnet of every class A and B car, you just pop the bonnet after each run and the Scrutineer checks it, it's that simple.

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 22:44
Yep thought it was that they did

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 22:45
S1 has specifics for:

S1 Legacy,
S1 1993-1996
S1 1997-1998
S1 1999-2000
S1 2001-2005
S1 2006-2007

Including minimum weight, specific turbo options (make and model), wheel and tyre size, Intercooler options (fmic on classic not on newage?), maximum injector size (440yellow on classic, 505cc dark blue or pink on newage), AVCS only on those cars that came with it as standard, eprom board (including ESL) on 1993-1998, OEM ecu remap on 99-2007, NO launch control, engine capacity max ? based on year, standard spec heads only (bar repair works like replacement guides etc), OEM 4pots and "subaru" rear 2pots max brakes on all classics, standard brembos on 2001-> (including on WRX).

OEM fuel tank, no swirl pots, OEM fuel rails, FPR permitted, max fuel pressure 4bar.

Boost control by ECU or external boost controller, no limits or very high limits, assuming limits of type of turbo and intercooler work out to give desired result.

Target max power on a newage around 400hp, max target power on a classis around 350hp ish, driven by injectors, turbo specs etc, weight difference reflected in differing minimum weights.

Hatch-> not eligible for S1 (you have to draw a line somewhere, and that's where I think it should be drawn given there are so few of them)

Pump fuel by brand, to include all 95 ron fuel, BP Ultimate, Total SUL, Texaco SUL, SHell Vpower, Tesco Momentum etc, NO 100ron fuel from a can (Sunoco RMR) allowed.

Aftermarket rollbars allowed, Max diameter 24mm.

Standard balljoint and suspension pickups required (no roll centre relocation kits).
Poly bushes allowed (perhaps limited to common locations as they are cheaper than stock bushes).

DCCD use???

Interior? Harness bar permitted, rear bolt in cage max? All seats must be present, stock subaru seats from any year of subaru permitted (early UK classic may fit more support late classic STI seat, no bucket seats permitted.

Classic cars may fit lightweight aluminium bonnet in place of a steel one (all newage are steel anyway)

------------------------------------------------------------
Just some ideas, include/reject as required, I'm not racing, but I can tell how I would approach it if I was trying to win!

TimH
1st November 2013, 22:45
Cool - still learning :)

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:46
Are you sure there are enough cars that want to run in S1 with those sorts of limits Andy/Rob? or are we going to end up with a massive S2 class again?

What this doesn't fix is the issue of a big weight difference between a car like mine (full weight and genuine daily driver in S2) and something like Justins or roofermans (lightweight classic with equal or more power), is that something that we want to address or not?

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 22:47
Didn't see the various fuel pressure comments. I think it's worth allowing an FPR as a stock FPR can vary and you can vary them a little more if you want! Perhaps 3.5 bar max would cover all eventualities and allow headroom for the hp figures that both Andy and I came up with indpendantly, woot.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:49
Adjustable FP reg has always been allowed

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:50
at 3.2BAR which seems a sensible max to me.

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 22:51
Drop the methanol, downgrade your turbo, fit standard injectors, run in S1.


Are you sure there are enough cars that want to run in S1 with those sorts of limits Andy/Rob? or are we going to end up with a massive S2 class again?

What this doesn't fix is the issue of a big weight difference between a car like mine (full weight and genuine daily driver in S2) and something like Justins or roofermans (lightweight classic with equal or more power), is that something that we want to address or not?

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:52
Are you sure there are enough cars that want to run in S1 with those sorts of limits Andy/Rob? or are we going to end up with a massive S2 class again?

What this doesn't fix is the issue of a big weight difference between a car like mine (full weight and genuine daily driver in S2) and something like Justins or roofermans (lightweight classic with equal or more power), is that something that we want to address or not?

Can't be sure John.

It would be good to address the weight difference issue but given the 3 class structure its going to be tricky.

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:52
No thanks Paul. My Turbo is Awesome as a daily driver, which is what it was designed for! :D

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:54
Very useful debate this. :)

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:54
More power would help you, see how Neverneverman went in Steve BT's full weight newage, or in the hatch which is heavier again but had the power to pull it off!

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:56
Yes, I know Andy. But that car is not a daily driver, despite it being full weight. I appreciate what I am trying to do is bloody difficult, but I'd rather suffer on a sprint than have a laggy road car with stoopid power that breaks the gearbox every five minutes.

Maybe I need to join the race fuel brigade for the sprints.

Andy.F
1st November 2013, 22:58
Its always a compromise John, the amount of shopping I've lost out my boot is unbelievable :D

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 22:59
Pmsl

Paul@Zen
1st November 2013, 22:59
And here we arrive at the awkward point John.

The lines have to be made, and some people are going to get cut up in the process.

I think the classes should be set out in the way that makes the most sense for the majority of potential competitors, and those few that unfortunately end up in the wrong place will need to adapt to compete.

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 23:02
I don't disagree Paul. My concern is we don't end up as this year, with very few S1 and a rammed S2 class. Despite what some may think, it's not me I'm concerned about, I can live with not winning anything so long as people understand the rules we end up with and we can police them easily.

John Stevenson
1st November 2013, 23:06
And here we arrive at the awkward point John.

and those few that unfortunately end up in the wrong place will need to adapt to compete.

Or most like whine Ad Nausium !!

shawy1976
1st November 2013, 23:06
Surely the main process is to keep the majority happy , and most of the moaners are in s2 cos its crammed with a massive diffrence in cars ... for once I agree with mr felstead only joking ....
Not many are gonna go as low as standard turbos injectors ..
Surely its about keeping the cars close in spec with 3 classes its not possible so really the minority which is s1 needs upgrading to accept more cars....

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 23:10
Maybe we need to gather a list of potential competitors and the basic spec they currently intend to run, so we can judge where the level of spec really is at out there?

We could maybe have a car spec questionare that people could fill out and email to us?

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 23:17
If you open up S1 too much you then end up with nearly 2 S2 classes!!! There has to be a defined difference in performance between classes.

big_rob_sydney
1st November 2013, 23:20
I haven't read the whole thread, only jumping in here at the end (apologies).

Despite this, my view is that looking at it from the car point of view may be missing the point. Personally, I think looking at it from the person / competitor point of view might be useful. IE, be clear about exactly who are your customers.

From this point, I'd suggest classes based on:

1. Outright - by all means go crazy. I expect low numbers here
3. Budget - absolutely minimal mods, so that people can get in, have some fun, and not feel like someone with a bigger wallet will hose them, despite them maybe being good steerers.

2. Catchall for those who hate stockish cars, but dont want to compete with the big boys.

I suspect the bulk would be in 2 & 3, because not many may want to spend the 10's of thousands to chase outright, nor have a workshop to promote and recoup the costs.

Again, apologies if its been covered.

TimH
1st November 2013, 23:23
Aha - keep the classes as they are then :)

shawy1976
1st November 2013, 23:23
There's a massive diffrence in s2 ... why have class 1 with 3 cars and class 2 with 12...
Mlr have 4 classes for a reason to make it equal ...
Are the mlr gonna accept more subarus next year ?

wrxbart
1st November 2013, 23:27
You have to see it from the S1 class if u move too many down from S2 you end up with a S1 class with a massive difference but maybe more cars and then we have this yrs S2 problem all over again in S1

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 23:41
If we have virtually no S1 cars, maybe that's the better thing to do than have a rammed S2 class.

I think we need to find out what people are building and expect to run, if as this year we only have two S1 cars then is that really a class spec worth keeping the focus on? It may be a nice idea to have an entry level at such a spec, but if virtually no one wants to run to those rules, what's the point?

Matt R
1st November 2013, 23:49
Started a runners and car spec thread to help gauge who & what people intend on running

johnfelstead
1st November 2013, 23:54
That's not the way we need to do it Matt.

TimH
1st November 2013, 23:55
Why not ask potential runners what class they think they should be in? Not sure whether anything would come of it, but might be interesting?

For the record, I believe I'd be in S2, alongside JF amongst others. My motivation would be to see if I could compare to John as he has proven to be able to drive a mean time with his car :)

If I wanted to go all out, I'd be stripping the car out and going in S3 with AF, CJ, MR etc. One day, maybe, but now now.

And no way I'd want to undo mods just to get into S1.

ScoobyDoo69
2nd November 2013, 00:03
There will be no pleasing everyone.

Just take on board all the suggestions and create the rules for 2014. Some will be happy, some will not be happy and most I'm sure will just be fine either way!

Obviously if there is complete uproar about the rules then amend but if not, job done.

PS I still think my points per mods system would work well ;)

blackpoolrock
2nd November 2013, 00:16
Your never ever going to please everyone, but it seams there is to much variation in S2. I think adding a class is the only way forward to even out the field but NOT with only the 20 cars allocated. I dot see it being a problem running a stand alone sprint - I know if 3 cars that are not on here much hoping to compleat next year plus me that's 4.

I see where Matt was coming from giving first refusal to the guys who have been there since day one, but with many only doing a few rounds surly that's a shame for someone that may want to do all the rounds and doesn't get the chance due to limited numbers

Dyl 4n
2nd November 2013, 00:48
Add this class. It's one step down from the current class 2 due to the use of std Subaru turbo. But you can use an after market ECU.

This is the class I would like to enter. I don't have the budget yet to enter the current class 2 and be competitive and class 1 would mean putting the car back to std again.

Just my 2pence worth.

CLASS B (FAST ROAD):
MODELS: All models
CAPACITY: Free
TURBO: Standard Subaru turbo
ECU: Free
BOOST: Maximum peak boost limit of 1.9bar (will be tested at random)
LAUNCH CONTROL: Free
INJECTORS: Free
CAMSHAFTS: Free
MANIFOLDS: Standard Mitsubishi inlet manifold. Exhaust manifold - Free
INDUCTION: Free
EXHAUST: Free
FUEL: Pump Fuel only, No race fuel and no additives (will be tested at random)
BRAKE CALIPERS: Free
DISCS & PADS: Free
SUSPENSION: Free
SUBFRAMES: Standard
GEARBOX: Standard Mitsubishi. Ikeya shifter allowed. No dog boxes.
DIFFERENTIAL: Free
BODYSHELL: Standard bodyshell with no structural modifications (see below for definition)
INTERIOR: Full OEM interior; dash, carpets, door cards, headlining, pillar trim, glass and 4 working glass windows
SEATS: Front seats – free. Rear seats - Standard Mitsubishi
HARNESS: Free - including harness bar
TYRES: Restricted to MSA 1A or 1B list, or Grooved/Patterned Tarmac Rally tyre (see list of acceptable tyres below). No ‘super soft’ compound or Slick tyres. No width limit.
TYRE WARMERS: No
ADDITIONAL: No Nitrous Oxide or Supercharging

spd(john)
2nd November 2013, 04:49
Just read through the thread again, and I still stand by what I have already said use the MSA class structure

Road going

Mod Prod

Sports libra

You have a defined set of Reg's in print and available online (FREE) to all to work with, then there can be no excuse if you turn up with a non compliant car.

p555sbr
2nd November 2013, 07:59
If you compare the 22b to the mlrr regs i think s1=class a s2 = class c and s3 = class d so i think if you fetched s1 closer to class b regs it would even things up a little in regaurds to the gap and get more in s1

mk2driver
2nd November 2013, 08:08
I think we need to keep std injectors and turbos in S1, just free off some of the suspension and brake regs, maybe tyres as well.

This is my opinion on it as well. As I person who wants to enter S1 next year but has 1B tyres on their car it makes sense. It also allows those who want to use the likes of coil overs into that class, which yes can be very expensive but can also be done on a budget, same as the tyres. As you have said its meant to be a class for fairly standard road cars to be competitive and although tyres can make a huge difference its not something that should be out of reach for most competitors cost wise as most will buy new 1A tyres anyway.

The points system suggested earlier in the thread could be worth looking at. It become harder to scrutineer possibly but also allows some tactical thinking by those who wish to try and win the class as to what will give them the greatest advantage for their car/driver combo.

At the minute Im in a standard 94 WRX RA with 4 pots, ARB's, STI struts/springs and STI back box. I have R888's so in the current rules will be in S2. If that stays the case then so be it but for me it doesn't make sense that my car would be in S2 just because of tyres. I won't be changing them as I will have better times and fun with them on and don't want to buy another new set so will just move up to S2 if needs be.

MAD Hammer
2nd November 2013, 08:18
Any comments on cages then ? As it stands I can't drop to S2 as have a safety devices cage. But I could if this was allowed and go to a stock position turbo as it looks like that will be the regs go. Even though I can probably get a 76mm standard position turbo that will perform the same as my rotated 30.

I am due to start building Andy's car for this series, that again has a cage that puts it in S3 but rest of spec will be S2 and under 400 bhp

There's a couple of examples.

wrxbart
2nd November 2013, 08:39
I think johns idea for a competitor email containing their current spec and anything they are thinking of changing is a good idea. Would people be prepared to do this and email them to me or one of the other 3?

Inc class currently running in

rooferman555
2nd November 2013, 08:48
Any comments on cages then ? As it stands I can't drop to S2 as have a safety devices cage. But I could if this was allowed and go to a stock position turbo as it looks like that will be the regs go. Even though I can probably get a 76mm standard position turbo that will perform the same as my rotated 30.

I am due to start building Andy's car for this series, that again has a cage that puts it in S3 but rest of spec will be S2 and under 400 bhp

There's a couple of examples.

Safety devices bolt in cage didn't put you in s3 Clive ?

I run one in s2 ?

Was it not the flat boot floor....

MAD Hammer
2nd November 2013, 08:51
No flat floor in mine, it's more than 6 point. Andy has a safety 21 cage.

Really don't want to change turbo to go down to s2 either really.

TrackScotland
2nd November 2013, 09:13
A simple way of catching more in S1 is freeing up brakes/suspension.... Most cars will be running some form of upgrade in this dept anyway.

johnfelstead
2nd November 2013, 09:14
What we could do Rob, is write a basic template that we can email competitors, with the main areas of spec listed that they can tick, that way we don't get inundated with small detail, just the meat of the car spec that makes the performance difference.

Based on that we can then look to see if any changes we propose, will actually achieve what we want to or not.

johnfelstead
2nd November 2013, 09:18
No flat floor in mine, it's more than 6 point. Andy has a safety 21 cage.

Really don't want to change turbo to go down to s2 either really.

My own call on that at the moment is multi point cages move the car from an S2 spec. If we want to get a grip of power in S2 and stop people building 550BHP+ S2 cars, then standard position turbos do make sense as a way to cap this.

MAD Hammer
2nd November 2013, 09:42
Makes no sense John, a standard position turbo can do 500/550 as will a rotated 30. There is no way I can be competitive in s3 with a 30r unless I was to turn the car in to something wide arch with wings and mega handling mods.

Don't agree on cages, they are a safety measure so why no allow in s2 ?

wrxbart
2nd November 2013, 09:49
What we could do Rob, is write a basic template that we can email competitors, with the main areas of spec listed that they can tick, that way we don't get inundated with small detail, just the meat of the car spec that makes the performance difference.

Based on that we can then look to see if any changes we propose, will actually achieve what we want to or not.


That sounds like a very good idea john.

wrxbart
2nd November 2013, 09:51
Makes no sense John, a standard position turbo can do 500/550 as will a rotated 30. There is no way I can be competitive in s3 with a 30r unless I was to turn the car in to something wide arch with wings and mega handling mods.

Don't agree on cages, they are a safety measure so why no allow in s2 ?

A rotated 30 will do a lot more than that though in S2 regs given injectors are free and pumps etc. as for the cage I'm on the fence at the mo I can see the point its safety most of all but a multiplying cage does add a lot of structural stiffness to the car.

Andis
2nd November 2013, 10:02
Last week I was resigned to being at the bottom of s3 and came within an inch of taking the angle grinder to the boot floor.

Altering the spec to get into s2 wasn't worth it, as it is cramped in there, but going into s1 with a chance of being competitive is tempting. Letting s1 run with coilovers, capped boost levels on standard engines and fuel, standard boxes, and any tyres and brakes under standard arches will surely include a lot of cars out there that you want to attract at entry level?

As for stripped interiors and safety items such as bolt in cages, seats and harnesses I think they should be left to an individuals choice in a lower class.

It's a fine line to walk at the bottom between excluding anyone who plays the rules to finish way ahead of the competition but at the same time trying not discourage people on a budget being able to give it a go without having to remove their often hard worked for mods on what is an everyday driver.

Matt R
2nd November 2013, 10:15
Re cages. I don't think people should be penalised by being bumped up in class for thinking about safety. As long as the rest of the car complies I think a cage should be irrelevant.

We should be encouraging safety, not discouraging it.

I'd also like to see race suits as a advisory this year with them becoming compulsory the following year.

Steven
2nd November 2013, 10:21
The chassis difference between a non caged car and a car with a safety devices 6 point bolt in is quite noticeable. The jump from a 6 point to a multipoint be it bolt in or weld in is significant.

MAD Hammer
2nd November 2013, 10:23
A rotated 30 will do a lot more than that though in S2 regs given injectors are free and pumps etc. as for the cage I'm on the fence at the mo I can see the point its safety most of all but a multiplying cage does add a lot of structural stiffness to the car.

I can half see point on turbo but a standard position 76mm turbo will do the same ish power.

How many seconds on one of these sprints will a ridged cage be worth really ? There is way more time in other items. I really can't believe you guys are on the fence with a safety item !

gussy
2nd November 2013, 10:23
Rob what you have suggested about spec sheets is a good idea it will give yourself and the committee a better idea of how the land is lying as people put their spec sheets together, as for me it does not matter as my car is built to be in the higher class 3 anyway admitted tho at lower engine power levels than others in that class, had been proven in class 3 by Matt that you don't need a lot of engine power to be successful going back to the S1 debate what Andis has suggested might be an idea to look at to encourage more people into the S1 class.

Matt R
2nd November 2013, 10:36
Tbh, and I'm probably a little biased, or a least sensitive to the area of having a cage due to my work.

If a cage gives a 0.5s or a 10s advantage I really don't care. I'd rather see someone wanting to be safe and installing a cage than those that go on track without one.

Encourage safety. If there's a small chassis gain to be had then fabulous. Maybe this will further encourage people to fit one.

People who go on track without a caged car are IMHO being a tit anyway and deserve whatever small penalty the cage gives other cars.

It only has to go Pete Tong once and we'll have the medics scraping one of our mates up off the Tarmac.

The sprints are fun. Not life and death. Advantage or not, don't penalise someone for being sensible

Paul@Zen
2nd November 2013, 10:47
Driving a fully caged car without a helmet is potentially dangerous, driving it without your helmet and with lose harness is very dangerous, one minor bump and you're looking at a head injury. SO caging a predominantly road car is potentially more dangerous than tracking a car without.

The latest Impreza shells are very stout when all the safety elements remain.

neverneverman
2nd November 2013, 10:56
This is getting out of control on here and the MLR ! Why the hell does there need to be them an us ? Why not just run a sprint series as per blue book rules as spd(John) says ?
Road going
Mod Prod
Sports libra

Bring all the sponor into one pot and go from there ..

Paul@Zen
2nd November 2013, 11:11
The reason is that this aims to include more people on an equal footing. If you go by bluebook rules alone there will be many competitors that will be instantly uncompetitive due to having the "wrong" car. And this is a series aimed at subaru drivers that might not otherwise compete, so limits on power in the lower classes are not inapropriate (remember you competed in roadgoing at harewood with circa 650hp).

neverneverman
2nd November 2013, 11:26
It could be tweak to even it up. But why run two sprints why not just the one big one ?

TrackScotland
2nd November 2013, 11:28
yup, my main issue with MSA S regs is there is no limits on performance.

If you have a car with 1000bhp and its interior intact - you are in Production.
300bhp in a stripped car - Modified Production
300bhp with an ebay wing - Sports Libre

SLS uses MSA S regs for entry, but then classifies on power to weight ratio. Another kettle of fish :O

MAD Hammer
2nd November 2013, 11:30
We have been asked for feedback and I honestly don't think we are far away without having to go blue book. Most people wont move a class anyway so why look to turn it on its head ?

I have made my points and will leave it to the four guys to sort, I'll compete whatever the class and judge myself on those with similar power/specs whether I am in 2 or 3. If 3 then so be it but I can't afford to go wide arch big wheeled monster to compete.

Paul@Zen
2nd November 2013, 11:38
That I do agree with to some extent, I think the Subaru's have come on a long way in S2-S3 and regularly compete properly with the EVOs, perhaps 2015 would be the right time to do that with a test of class structure in 2014, but not my call!


It could be tweak to even it up. But why run two sprints why not just the one big one ?

wrxbart
2nd November 2013, 11:48
Agree there Paul maybe just one sprint in 2015

Matt R
2nd November 2013, 11:59
Agree there Paul maybe just one sprint in 2015

The top Evo's were beating Andy, who in turn was beating the rest of s3 by 5 seconds.

If the best car in s3 can't beat the Evo's then what chance do the rest of us have?

Barring Andy, yourself & Steven, no scoob gets close to them.

johnfelstead
2nd November 2013, 12:03
MSA blue book is an absolute none starter.

Anyone who drives a caged car without a helmet is a tit, to put it into MattR's vocabulary.

wrxbart
2nd November 2013, 12:05
Pmsl. Defo agree there john on the msa rules.

TimH
2nd November 2013, 12:07
But that's the issue isn't it? If it's caged, it's not a realistic road-car proposition any more?

neverneverman
2nd November 2013, 12:32
MSA with tweeks !!

p555sbr
2nd November 2013, 12:33
To be honest last year i altered the car to suit s1 regs and i will do so again this year we have 4 people putting there time in and listening to what people would like from the series and i know they will do whats best for the series not everyone will be happy but thats life if i have the likes of john f in s1 then bring it on its not like where racing for 0000s if we win

neverneverman
2nd November 2013, 12:44
MSA blue book is an absolute none starter.

Anyone who drives a caged car without a helmet is a tit, to put it into MattR's vocabulary.

I know what your saying, But is that not up to the owner/driver of the car..

banhama
2nd November 2013, 14:17
MSA blue book is an absolute none starter.

Anyone who drives a caged car without a helmet is a tit, to put it into MattR's vocabulary.

I'm a rather large mammary-gland then:D, although I do always keep the harness tight, and the cage is padded!

John Stevenson
2nd November 2013, 14:20
Helmets compulsery

stevebt
2nd November 2013, 14:26
And speaking of helmets hello John :)

Andy.F
2nd November 2013, 14:32
The top Evo's were beating Andy, who in turn was beating the rest of s3 by 5 seconds.

If the best car in s3 can't beat the Evo's then what chance do the rest of us have?

Barring Andy, yourself & Steven, no scoob gets close to them.

Rob took FTD at one round in 2012. Steven was 2nd OA in one round in 2011. In 2013 I was FTD one round, 2nd OA at 0.1 seconds off FTD next round and 3rd OA another round so the Evo's are catchable for sure. A 4 cyl car can run the same power I had and will have better handling so no reason for a Subaru not to compete overall.
As a matter of interest, if there had been an overall combined championship, it would have gone down to the last round between me and Blacky for the overall win, thats how close it would have been.

Lots of good points coming up for consideration though :)

banhama
2nd November 2013, 14:34
Helmets compulsery

On the road?

John Stevenson
2nd November 2013, 14:44
On the road?

No, you can be a Mammary all you like there ;)

Matt R
2nd November 2013, 15:37
Rob took FTD at one round in 2012. Steven was 2nd OA in one round in 2011. In 2013 I was FTD one round, 2nd OA at 0.1 seconds off FTD next round and 3rd OA another round so the Evo's are catchable for sure. A 4 cyl car can run the same power I had and will have better handling so no reason for a Subaru not to compete overall.
As a matter of interest, if there had been an overall combined championship, it would have gone down to the last round between me and Blacky for the overall win, thats how close it would have been.

Lots of good points coming up for consideration though :)

As I said Andy, bar yourself, Steven & Rob. In 15 + rounds the absolute cream of the UK subaru scene has done well against the Evo's in 5 of them.

And your car is ridiculous. You can't compare your car or the Lateral Performance banana to 99% of the other competitors cars. We simple arent capable of building/funding such machines.

If its a joint series then the rest of us in s3 might as well pack our bags and find somewhere else to play because its too far away from a level playing field.

Steven
2nd November 2013, 15:37
Rob took FTD at one round in 2012. Steven was 2nd OA in one round in 2011. In 2013 I was FTD one round, 2nd OA at 0.1 seconds off FTD next round and 3rd OA another round so the Evo's are catchable for sure. A 4 cyl car can run the same power I had and will have better handling so no reason for a Subaru not to compete overall.
As a matter of interest, if there had been an overall combined championship, it would have gone down to the last round between me and Blacky for the overall win, thats how close it would have been.

Lots of good points coming up for consideration though :)
The one where Rob got FTD and i was 2nd in 2012, we were both way clear of the Evo's, i think that was down to the fact we were both pushing one another on quite a bit. I also had a 4th to Gavs 2nd at Teeside with a somewhat poorly car, so the Evo's are definitely doable.

Matt R
2nd November 2013, 15:42
The one where Rob got FTD and i was 2nd in 2012, we were both way clear of the Evo's, i think that was down to the fact we were both pushing one another on quite a bit. I also had a 4th to Gavs 2nd at Teeside with a somewhat poorly car, so the Evo's are definitely doable.

Sorry but again, I disagree.

Most of us can't afford 12k gearboxes and xxk engines as and when we please.

That's what it'd take to challenge Liddy & Co. that's not cheap entry level motorsport.

TrackScotland
2nd November 2013, 15:46
No motorsport is cheap....

But S1 is entry level.

Steven
2nd November 2013, 15:59
Sorry but again, I disagree.

Most of us can't afford 12k gearboxes and xxk engines as and when we please.

That's what it'd take to challenge Liddy & Co. that's not cheap entry level motorsport.
Rob did it on a standard box Matt.

johnfelstead
2nd November 2013, 16:05
That killed itself.

MLR don't want the Subaru's in their championships, so it's pointless even talking about it IMHO.

Justin A
2nd November 2013, 16:10
Slicks and tyre warmers would probably have got Andy FTD on the occasions he missed it

p555sbr
2nd November 2013, 16:17
Would prefer the 2 championships kept separate as the regs would get to complicated and i dont think it would go down well with some of the evo boys

Matt R
2nd November 2013, 16:20
Andy has 1000+ hp at his disposal should he require it, a gearbox that can take it, 2 extra cylinders, and a car that weighs not very much.

You can't use the fastest 4WD subaru in the world as a representive to what's possible for the average runner in s3.

johnfelstead
2nd November 2013, 16:29
I know what your saying, But is that not up to the owner/driver of the car..

Insurance companies don't like caged road cars Paul, for good reason. If you dont have a full harness that is always very tight, you can do serious injury. FIA spec foam coverings are designed to work in conjunction with a helmet, I don't fancy your chances head butting that stuff!

Cages make a huge difference to the shell rigidity, they are worth time on the stopwatch.

shawy1976
2nd November 2013, 16:31
Lol matt with your stripped out wide 22b fibreglass doors rollcaged pedal box mochine..
Its called boost ,balls ,and serious fuel if u wanna compete....
You can't run small turbos and your highest setting is everybodys warm up boost . That's why u won't catch them ... u could if u added a 5 to your turbo number and run 2.4 bar on e85 .

Andy.F
2nd November 2013, 16:38
Not sure what your point is Matt? Do you want a performance limit put on S3 now?

brightgreendetailing
2nd November 2013, 16:42
fwiw

do we really need to re invent the wheel ???

the series itself is great as is and the regs are good as is just needs some fine tuning why do we need all this just because a few chose to mi interpret last two years regs !!

fine tune the regs and publish them , flout your out simple .

steve

Arch
2nd November 2013, 16:45
Makes no sense John, a standard position turbo can do 500/550 as will a rotated 30. There is no way I can be competitive in s3 with a 30r unless I was to turn the car in to something wide arch with wings and mega handling mods.

Don't agree on cages, they are a safety measure so why no allow in s2 ?

In road car classes (MSA Sprints), could be likened to S1, you can fit a cage as long as it does not pick up on the suspension mounts i.e stiffening the chassis. A basic cage that will offer some protection to the driver if he rolls is allowed. So maybe there is the dividing line with cages. A trawl through the blue book may give you many of the phrases you need without going all the way.