View Full Version : Ten of the best II

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6th January 2003, 01:56
For Sunday the 3rd of August :

Please send your specs to Anders@22B.com:

with the phrase " [ten of the best contenders]"

John will be setting up a fancy grid on his computer to properly compare specs and dyno printout. I just pick by colour http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Our next get together is 11th of April http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

* people have sent latest spec

Adam M 22B. *
My 22B. *
Mark Aigen Lateral Performance. *
Bob Rawle BRD.
John Felstead.*
David Taylor. *
David Wallis. *
Tim the Slooby. *
Christian R. *
Andy F. *
Harvey. (as 200+ member in already and frees up a place)
Steve Guirey . *
Steven Darley. *
Disco. *
Pat (low boost 3L )*
Mike Singh *

Phil Gardner. (May be coming as special notable guest to show how driving is not all about power http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif )


Michaels Legacy (in already and frees up a place)

Any other over-tuned cars you guys can vouch for? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

I have been a while out of the scene it would be nice to come back with a bang http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Map of Elvington GP circuit (http://www.racingcircuits.net/UnitedKingdom/England/Elvington.html)

Where it is (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?X=466000&Y=448000&scale=25000&coordsys=gb)

View from helicopter (http://www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=public&x=466000&y=448000&scale=25000&width=700&height=410)

Practice day:


Sunday 13th July- Practise day for Ten of the Best 2- Elvington airfield
Open to anyone, timed handling, top speed and 500m head-to-head racing all welcome. 70 per car.

[This message has been edited by Anders (edited 30 March 2003).]

6th January 2003, 08:47
Have you seen this url?

Count me in - just need to know dates asap so I can book boat/etc.

Tone Loc
6th January 2003, 10:40
Brilliant.... im not going to miss this one (wish i had something special tho so i could run http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif ). Will be good to see all these high powered scoobies together tho http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif .


6th January 2003, 11:12
Please Please Please...

Can I run?

It will be ready http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

(with nitrous and 40psi)


Danny Fisher
6th January 2003, 21:43
If things go to plan, I should be going up in a rotary type thing. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


7th January 2003, 00:50
Why Dan, you be taking helicopter lessons http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

I take it that 'Tim' at the bottom is me...purely going there to defend my title http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

7th January 2003, 15:15
Maybe he means his lawnmower? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Lateral Performance Ltd
7th January 2003, 23:56
I think the Subaru's will give a pretty strong performance this year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

What about adding,

Andy F,

That's already 12 cars !!!!!

Unlike last year, I think we'll be fighting for a place.......

If John will drag me round the handling track, I'll give him a tow up the strip, that way, we'll both get some "overall" decent times http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


8th January 2003, 07:30
Andy F?

SO we already have upto 12.

9 confirmed already http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

We will need standby cars as the nature of this over tuning is that inevitably some projects aren't finished in time http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I think there should be some sort of "seeding" as in last years "winners" are automatically on the list.

Adam and my 22B look good on paper but are not prooven http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

I know Bob and Mark always produces good cars http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

How can we make the allocation fair?

(I like the potential competiveness of rival vendors battling it out http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif )

Ideas guys please http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Adam M
8th January 2003, 09:53
My car looks good on paper?

it looks great in the flesh!!!! it just doesnt have an engine at all, and at this rate there is no guarantee it will have one then either.

Many hurdles to overcome first sadly, and at the moment I cant see any light at the end of the tunnel! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

8th January 2003, 11:40
Well erm Im a nutter, and will be taking spares with me, and the car on a trailer... so does that mean I can run?


8th January 2003, 14:03
The mighty John Felstead and I will leave this open for offers of attendance for a couple of weeks.

Then we will decide on merit which 10 cars will be offered a place and then the reserve list. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

As I stated before these over tuned car projects can "run in to problems" and so a healthy reserve list will be madatory http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

8th January 2003, 14:23
Put me down as a reserve, although i will probably be delivery Mr Wallis' car on a trailer.

Only mildly modified compared to "nutter" spec cars above http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Its too close to my home not to miss it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

For those going, and not staying with friends, let me know if you need accomodation, as my In Laws have a Farmhouse B&B and they are only 15 mins away, have ample parking (hidden from main road, and near roads similar to Elvingtons airfield, not that you would use them above 60mph of course).

So if you need somewhere to stay, book now, they are fairly cheap.


8th January 2003, 15:16
Bit silly, i know, but when in August is it?

8th January 2003, 16:37
first sunday IIRC

8th January 2003, 16:44
so thats 3rd august then http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/confused.gif

8th January 2003, 18:20

I would need accomodation, double room please!


8th January 2003, 19:04
Can you stick andy forrests name on the list... Ill get him to confirm..


8th January 2003, 19:55
Yes I'm up for it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

8th January 2003, 21:15
Christian Mail me for tomorrow and i will pass you details. It is a family farmhouse that is Just a B & B, so evening meal is elsewhere.

Chinese restaurant and 2 pubs in the village, where i live, someone would be willing to take you to and from them for your evening meal.

There is already 1 taker that is likely to take most of the rooms http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

9th January 2003, 14:34
Steven, you have email.

9th January 2003, 14:43
So do you http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

9th January 2003, 15:23
Hi Anders:Sounds like a very interesting day in the making. Please accept my firm interest and diary already penned in.

9th January 2003, 22:01
Being ignorant who is P20 SPD?

I am sure you are a most excellent fellow http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

No slander please http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

9th January 2003, 22:25
Sorry Anders, my name is Steven, previously posted alot on Scoobynet.

Good friend (hopefully) of David Wallis, David helped me quite alot with getting my car ready for Well Lane 3 (a northern meet on SN)

Trout knows me, PBlamire (Paul) knows me, Mark Aigin knows me, and i stayed with John Felstead for 4 days whilst attending the WRC Rally GB, which i won on SN. A few more know me i hope http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Hope that helps, i am honest guv, honest!

Ask any of them http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Edited because i could not spell, again http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by P20SPD (edited 09 January 2003).]

Jolly Green Monster 2
10th January 2003, 10:48
Would it be possible to come and watch?


10th January 2003, 11:08
Loads of people came to watch it last year Simon, so dont see why not, IIRC it cost about 8 per person to watch.

11th January 2003, 12:35
I can't find Top ten shoot out 1 on Scoby net their search is not coming up with anything http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Does anyone have any links to last years event as glamorised by Mark Aigen and John Felstead http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

11th January 2003, 12:38
P20SPD, never heard of him. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Looking great, i am happy to put my RA on the reserve list as i have a couple of cooking 22B's to play with. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

11th January 2003, 12:41

11th January 2003, 12:46
Actually I meant the Scoby net write ups from last year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

John defends his title in his RA or my 22B?
I am quick in straight lines! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Jolly Green Monster 2
13th January 2003, 12:42
Re: Watching

Excellent!! jkust have to persuade the wife to give me a weekend pass then!

JGM http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

20th January 2003, 21:51
Definitely would like to watch this years event.
I just can't throw enough money at the car this year to become an entrant...
but next year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Andy C

Disco 22X
21st January 2003, 15:13
Anders, YHM

I'm sure the likes of Pat, Mark and Adam will vouch for me and the car.

(if I give them enough money http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif)

22nd January 2003, 10:44
Calling "Deepsingh" I lost your email could you send it again?

Possum Fink
24th January 2003, 03:51

am really looking forward to running - car will be finished by then. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I think my car will make it into the top ten chosen - well I hope so http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif Well at least on paper......well this fag packet http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


stained duvet
24th January 2003, 09:10
Anders - put me down as chief coffee technician http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif and Team Disco 22X Equipment Manager (spanner holder)

Will be good to meet you at last - oh, and cheers for the advice over the last 2 years (you know what I mean) looks like you were right http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

24th January 2003, 17:32
Just curious about who actually makes the final decision. Has Chris ( Chris Mann, 200+ club )actually asked the ten to be chosen from within Scoobynet etc, or is he the one who will make the final decision for the entries??
I am just wondering, as I have already asked him and tried to get Michaels Legacy invited as a guest, to hopefully allow more subarus to attend. Perhaps it may be worth asking him, if there was enough legacy's willing to attend, for seperate entrants for both 10 impreza's, and 10 legacy's.
He still hasnt got back to me about the guest invite bit yet.

26th January 2003, 10:03
John Felstead and myself will be choosing 10 of the best (as in highly tuned) Imprezas. I am due to drive upto Manchester in a couple of weeks to go over the entrants who will be judged on style, grace and artisitic interpretation http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif Failing that on their on paper mods and dyno plots http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

We will need a reserve list and coffee making team http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif As things go wrong in OTT tuning and some cars just won't make it there http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

This is not a Scoobynit thing, 200+ club accepted 22B.com offer to organise a Subaru contingent.

When we have our list we will submit it to the organiser Mr Mann for him to ratify it.

I think a seperate Legacy subsection would be great as they are distinct entities http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

26th January 2003, 11:19
Anders...Seeing as you seem to be one of the ones choosing, should it not be possible for Michaels car to be invited as a guest, or in a seperate Legacy sction, dont forget to add him to the list.....
1990 Legacy RS....2nd place Subaru TOTB 1( I am speaking on his behalf, as he doesnt really use the internet. )
Selection will have to be done on paper, as it isnt really practical to come over to England.
Hopefully sometime in the spring, we will get over to Santa Pod for a few runs though.

Just to add, Ive emailed Chris again re the legacy/impreza section...to see if he considers it a possibilty..
Im sure there are also a few Twin Turbo legacy's out there who would love to have a go??

26th January 2003, 11:45
Stevie Turbo "the more the merrier" http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

Their site now says it is on Sunday 4th of August (hope it rains http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif )

26th January 2003, 18:20
It was on sunday 4th august last year, so how can that ne??

Given the 4th is a monday this year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

As i say, i will be a RESERVE, only running at 340 ish http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

26th January 2003, 21:12
Sunday would be the 3rd August if it is this year??? Dont think a date has been decided yet..

Just received an email from Chris.. No seperate list for Impreza/Legacy.
He says Michael can run as a guest invite along with myself, so this would leave the entry list for 10 other subarus, although no decisions will be made until April, when he will be asking for entries.
Should the guest invite list become full with cars that require a guest invite ( ie. bits of everything cars ) then I ask you to keep Michaels car in the list of runners, until I receive confirmation that a guest invite is accepted.
I hope it doesnt rain....although the track is quite grippy.

26th January 2003, 21:26
The rain bit was tongue in cheek http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Must have misread their website, hope they sort out date fairly soon.

3rd February 2003, 21:22
when will the list be done? just I will need to book boat over, and the sooner i do it, the cheaper it will be (touch wood)

3rd February 2003, 23:29
Christian mail me your mods and dyno plot, it is highly likely that you will be in the top ten http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

4th February 2003, 01:03
Christian, try Motorpsort Travel 01759301010

I recently discovered them through a friend, and during the summer months, their rates almost halved the price of a crossing between here ( N. Ireland ) and Scotland. They seem to have fixed prices for crossings which are cheaper all year round than anywhere else I have found.
Also seems to be the same price if its 1 person, or 4 anytime I have used them.

[This message has been edited by stevieturbo (edited 04 February 2003).]

4th February 2003, 21:15
Anders YHM.

4th February 2003, 23:55
Professor Grommet is now on the list http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

14th February 2003, 12:37
For those staying with Trout or nearby, how about a meal the night before at a local chinese restaurant?

14th February 2003, 13:37
Im up for that steven.. (not staying with trout that is http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)

Can I park my car and support vechicles at yours and bring the motorsport motorhome http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


14th February 2003, 15:09
P20SPD - is that near to where I will be ?

14th February 2003, 16:07
christian, Yes it is.


14th February 2003, 17:42
Christian yes it is, and while we are on the subject, i got reminded about a deposit last night http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

David, of course you can http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

17th February 2003, 09:57

I saw something from Chris Mann on the MLR saying about a possible team event. In which case it would be kinda nice to have a mix, and have some geared for top speed, some good on the strip etc etc.

Although I don't think 22b needs to go to the lengths of a 'qualifying' event!


stained duvet
18th February 2003, 12:30
Anders - anywhere i can pitch a tent?

19th February 2003, 22:02
John and I are meeting on March 7th http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

All entrants to mail me their details for consideration by then please http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Type Rs versus longer gearing maybe.

Hope to have a ringa ringer as well http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

19th February 2003, 23:48
Anders, do you want the spec the car is now...or what it might be in the summer http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

20th February 2003, 00:31
Both http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

20th February 2003, 11:01
ringer?? I've hear roumours about you two but... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif


Tim, but do you have a switch like the fast and the furious for nitrous http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


20th February 2003, 11:03
steven - can u send me the address again.
anders - did u get my email?

Adam M
20th February 2003, 13:04

do I need to send my spec?

it has been discussed extensively with john in the past, and I know that you know what my car has been modified to be capable of.

20th February 2003, 19:49
I would have thought that 170+ should be easily accessible to most Subarus now, with maybe the exception of the RA's. Perhaps it could be a lot higher with alterations to gearing, unless you are scared to rev the car, in which case, why bother attending.
IMO a top speed run will be a lot easier on the car, than the drag racing side of things. Multiple hard launches arent easy on a car, but damn good fun http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

20th February 2003, 20:04
I have got so far, 174mph on my speedo.

GPS was reading 169mph.

Still had more to go as well, but thought that was quick enough for the time being http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

20th February 2003, 20:06
All you need now christian is a ramp...


20th February 2003, 23:38
Anders, I'll sort out the current spec for you and the proposed changes in time for the summer...budget permitting http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Re the top speed, bring it on chaps, I threw down the gauntlet last summer, will any of you beat me http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Edditied because I'm not a Norfolk Farmer...

Oh and Chjristian, for the top speed you might want to remove the wing on the spoiler, it cost Neil at least 3.6 mph with the Prodrive WR spoiler on his RB5 http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Slooby (edited 20 February 2003).]

20th February 2003, 23:54
Paul > indeed, that will teach the ferry company to charge 350 to take me and my car over to england!!

Tim > cool, nice and simple to do with the 22b one http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

21st February 2003, 08:41
Ringa = Phil gardner ring instructor http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

Christian your mail came through but replies are blocked http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/confused.gif

Type R v standard v lateral performance longer gearing will play a part in John's deliberations.

I just choose by the colours http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

21st February 2003, 10:33
strange about the replies, everyone else can get in???

[ 09. March 2009, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: johnfelstead ]

21st February 2003, 10:47
mines silver, but Ill paint it any colour but silver http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

and I dont have a lateral performance gear kit yet.... just a 6 spd box

21st February 2003, 11:46
Christian YHM

Is the Steven on the list me? If so do you want my spec, as i think my car will be the baby of the bunch, although its running near to 350 at the moment.


21st February 2003, 13:38
Anders, Quality! Haven't seen Phil since the last Ring trip I went on...when he came screaming past my then standard car with a Pair of Porches desparately trying to stay with him http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Would be amusing to let him try all of our car's on the handling circuit...or maybe a sneaky teach in session at some event before hand http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

21st February 2003, 20:12
Aiming for sneaky teaching and John v Phil handling http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif Infact anything to get Adam behing the wheel of his blue beasty http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Kevin Atkins
22nd February 2003, 08:43
Hi Anders

Hope you get along to TOTB, it was good last year ( spent a lot of time on the handling circuit ) will be good to catch up.

Rgds Kevin

22nd February 2003, 09:42
Oooh Phil vs John...could get ugly http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

If they're going to race each other I suggest a control car for them to drive, something like a 20 quid Lada so they can wreck it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

23rd February 2003, 19:11
to all
just a quick news update on TOTB2 for you and members/groups. you may use
all or part of this email as you wish to members.

we have had massive interest and have already just about filled all places
for clubs and groups. individual cars of merit will still be allowed to
apply direct to us of course. the application forms will go live on the
website tackdayplus.com from march/april. teams should ensure they have all
paid up by end of june. any reserves etc or team change issues can be
ammended afterwards if emailed in writing to me. no one will be allowed to
pay on the day i'm afraid, and all entrants must have fully filled in the
application form incl reg numbers.

rules- as you know we have stated all along that cars should be road legal
etc. to save arguments before or after, all cars taking part must be road
legal, taxed tested and insured. this means in the spirit of the event that
any cars trailered there must also be capable of being driven away on the
roads also. tyres must be road legal at all times during the event.(tread
depth and DOT marked). a professional scrutineer will be checking all cars,
and at random, and all winning cars, just to ensure no-one is missed. any
objections must be raised on the day to a particular car, not after the
event. most clubs and groups already are aware of this and i'm sure 99% of
cars would already fill all the requirements. any issues here just email us
again beforehand.

in the spirit of the event pump fuels are encouraged but we are not able to
test fuels, nor do we wish to try to do so.

we are encouraging all cars to compete in all 3 disciplines this year by
introducing a team award, and overall best car award, based on results
gained from the top 5 places in each course. (these 2 awards may be
announced after the event once all results checked etc.)

for the 1/4m drag classes, the top 8 cars will qualify for the head to head
finals, based upon fastest times gained upto 3.30pm.
(handling and top speed classes will close at that time. )
the 1/4m head to head shootouts will occur after 4pm, closing at 5pm with
awards afterward.

club marquees- each club or group will be allocated a space for a marquee
and competing cars,in the main competitor area.
trailers and support cars must not be parked here, but in our safe , secure
designated area away from public carparking, but close enough for tools to
be shipped around etc if reqd. anyone trailering a car must contact us on
application, to arrange this with us. as the majority of cars are being
driven to and from the event this should not be too hard. all competitors
cars should be parked up in their respective club space without blocking the
main entry lanes, if not being raced at the time.
No trade advertising , banners or marquees will be allowed without our
permission beforehand. if you have/ are a trader wanting to help
out/support/sponsor the event, then please email us. groups and clubs can be
sponsored for their own trophies by such traders, and advertising space and
banners can be arranged etc, together with coverage in the dvd and other
Major magazine coverage has been agreed for the TOTB2 event, and we are
filming it (and the test day) again for a dvd/video.

test day- sun 13th july, this one is a set up and test day, same format as
the main event at elvington. all are welcome, along with other cars that
maybe didnt make the teams or wish to set some times to compare to etc. pay
on the day, price wil be set later.

if any clubs/groups have any special interest cars or similar competing,
that they would like to announce/publicise via our website, and hence gain
magazine coverage, then email us details for inclusion.

most of you are already aware that numerous top cars are already being
prpared for this years event, which is already looking to have more bhp and
performance than the first!

any queries should be mailed to

the website has already been partially updated and is www.trackdayplus.com (http://www.trackdayplus.com)

many thanks
chris mann www.trackdayplus.com (http://www.trackdayplus.com)

24th February 2003, 00:19
Anders, couple of quick Q's

1) did you get my mail with the car spec?

2) How much is it this year?

24th February 2003, 00:24
Yes Mr Slooby I have your mail http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

This year it is http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

24th February 2003, 19:11
Last years entry fee was 75, so I would expect something similar.
Whats the current standing with the entries??? I think that 10 just isnt enough really...

27th February 2003, 19:52
Anders, the reply never arrived?

6th March 2003, 23:42
OK off to see John tomorrow.

Last chance to send specs in http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

Please send to John Felstead on john.felstead@btinternet.com

Yes Christian I have yours http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

9th March 2003, 12:16
And the nominations for TOTB are ......

9th March 2003, 20:10

9th March 2003, 20:10

9th March 2003, 20:37
John and I are giving it another couple of weeks http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Couldn't decide on friday, John and I were distracted by recent BBS fall out http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ...and want to make sure that some of the fantasy projects are actually coming together. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

Thankyou for your patience http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

9th March 2003, 21:02
Probably best to use currently available dyno plots and 1/4 mile times then http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

9th March 2003, 23:31
Groan.. how much longer..!! Some people need to book boats you know!

Andy - what is your current 1/4mile time and 0-100mph times?

10th March 2003, 06:50
Not sure with this years spec, the gearbox didn't last long enough !!
Last year with 80bhp less was 11.7 1/4m
0-100 9.2 secs


10th March 2003, 11:40
Mine isnt a fantasy project, as its in progress and all paid for..

apart from a few little bits..

Just waiting for pat to pull his finger out http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif or is it mark http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

current dyno plot over 340bhp..
(engine is already half out though)

0-60 circa 4 secs.
0 - 160+ fooking quick.


10th March 2003, 17:13
so what is the deff date anyway?

Adam M
10th March 2003, 17:22
patience is a virtue christian, yuo will have plenty of time to tbook the boat if you are selected.

10th March 2003, 18:12
patience??? I am asking a question about when the date is! Is it sunday 3rd aug?

10th March 2003, 19:15
Just wondering if you think mine is becoming looney enough to warrant a mention yet ?

Just a thought !

10th March 2003, 21:10
Think we need over 400 from everyone.. looking at last years cossies...


10th March 2003, 21:45
Not necessarily David, I ended up being quicker and faster than most...without really trying on the acceleration front...

It might also be good to have a range of differently modified cars just to show what can be achieved on different budgets http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

10th March 2003, 22:55

I somehow think your top speed will be beaten http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

11th March 2003, 13:32
Sure will, by me if I'm invited http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

11th March 2003, 17:31
A date hasnt yet been set.

12th March 2003, 00:30
And me... I so would love to top 200...

Hmm what size wheels do I need ??

Adam M
12th March 2003, 10:32
aerodynamic drag increases with the swaure of speed.

I think we would need near on 7 to 800bhp to get there.

Wagon might have a better chance.

12th March 2003, 11:21
Does anyone get the feeling that David will be flat out down the straight, get bored, angry, and then flick the Nitrous switch, just so he can get to 200mph?

Something tells me he might.


David and i were talking a while back, and i was kind of saying that i think the Wagons would be better for the higher speed runs, do you think that could be the case?


12th March 2003, 11:30

Steven http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Me get bored...

Might change a cd on the way..


12th March 2003, 15:28
At elvington, top speed will be dictated by acceleration, as some cars won't reach their terminal speed.

200mph will require about 400wheel HP (I haven't worked it out exactly but have spreadsheet at home).


12th March 2003, 15:48
paul.. any chance I could have a look at the spreadsheet??

dont suppose you know the CD of an impreza 5dr turbo..

Acelleration shouldnt be a problem if I give it a hand in third or fourth http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


12th March 2003, 16:05
mine wont make 200mph, since i have changed the ratio on the gearset.

Adam M
12th March 2003, 19:41
david you will need the cdA not the cd.

I am convinced that the wagon will yield better aerodynamics due to the reduced airstream interruption as a result of the longer roof, and semi vertical rear screen.

not so convinced by 400whp paul.

would like to see that spreadsheet to be honest.

The F40 just made it to 200mph with 454bhp so probably 400 at the wheels.

It had an overdrive sixth gear and I without doubt a much lower cdA than any impreza!

12th March 2003, 21:19
David I think gearing will be your big issue.
To top 200 you will need your peak power right there (not rpm limit) so you're probably looking at 6500 rpm on a 2.3 ?
That equals 30.8 mph/1000 rpm. Not sure how that fits in with your 6 speed box ? If you tell me your 6th gr ratio and diff I can tell you how big your tyres need to be.

FWIW John Bank's Deltadash dyno predicts a top speed of 198 with his current 355 bhp at wheels.


12th March 2003, 22:18

But reading the figures John posted, it says the max speed in 5th is 174.5 mph ?

12th March 2003, 22:45
David will be using the UK 6speed box, which will have a taller setup than most 5speeds.
with 215/45x17, this should allow 194mph @ 8000rpm. If he goes with bigger tyres, then more would be possible.
The Jap 6speed has shorter ratios, and would give 175 @ 8000rpm, which would be the same as a P1 in 5th.
Obviously the engines will have to making good power at close to 8000rpm to have any chance.
Hopefully this year they will use the amin runway which would allow a 1.4 mile stretch instead of the 1.2 last year.

UK 6speed ratios

GEAR RATIOS: 1st 3.636
GEAR RATIOS: 2nd 2.375
GEAR RATIOS: 3rd 1.761
GEAR RATIOS: 4th 1.346
GEAR RATIOS: 5th 0.971
GEAR RATIOS: 6th 0.756
GEAR RATIOS: Reverse 3.545

Jap Spec 6speed
1st 3.636
2nd 2.375
3rd 1.761
4th 1.346
5th 1.062
6th 0.842

Rev 3.545

Diff 3.9

13th March 2003, 06:53
Christian, the Deltadyno predicts the maximum speed due to power, thats why you get the two different numbers.
One theoretical assuming ideal gearing and the other as limited by gearing/RPM range.

Steve cheers, I don't think there will be enough power at wheels at 8000 for 200 MPH even with Davids power proposals. 6500 is the area to aim for IMHO which means you need 'much' larger wheels ie from 620mm to 760mm !!!! (and thats for 194mph based on Stevies figures)

13th March 2003, 10:24
so how does this work then??

If i say max rpm in top is:

6000 is 145
7000 is 169
8000 is 194

So Say peak power is at 6300 ?? then top speed??

Surely my top speed should be able beat tim w's of last year of 166.6 ???

Im confused now

Surely the power required cant be directly proportional to speed, where as revs could??


john banks
13th March 2003, 10:50
If my DD figures are remotely right I suspect it would be able to get to 7000 RPM in 5th without being power limited since the power appears to be a plateau at least on the unsmoothed graph, think this would be about 172 mph. If using longer gearing would take longer to get there of course.

Theoretically at least, I don't think a 400+ car will have trouble reaching 7000 RPM with a UK 5th gear, given enough space.

If I could make the present power I make at 6500 at 8000 RPM with UK 5th it should get to about 197, theoretically at least http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif Not sure if I want to try it on road tyres and with the aerodynamics of a Scooby http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif Either that or the engine will melt http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Trouble is going to the 2.33, I don't think even with some head work I will ever have peak power over 6500 RPM, so anything over 172 is pie in the sky for my plans I suspect. But these are not really top speed cars are they guys?

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 13 March 2003).]

Adam M
13th March 2003, 11:21
John, what makes you think the 2.33 will limit your max power to 6300rpm?

john banks
13th March 2003, 12:16
Call it worst case pessimism.

13th March 2003, 12:17
Yeah.. I second adams comments.. otherwise I would choose a 6000 rpm revlimit, rather than the 8k I was planning on...


john banks
13th March 2003, 12:28
The challenge is making it breath well at silly power over 7000 RPM, if you do it then great, but as yet I am unaware of a proven route to this.

My 450/400 project target is planned to do it all at 5909 RPM http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif tapering off the torque thereafter and holding 450 BHP as long as possible. How long it holds it will determine roughly the top speed with UK 5th which I am retaining.

My hope is that something like the 20G will behave on the 2.33 like the 05 does on the 2.0 but a bit more of everything - in other words a very nice torquey machine http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

13th March 2003, 13:11

You would need to overlay your 'power available' with 'power required' to find your top end speed. Your car will not stop accelerating at peak power on your current gearing (with say 500bhp) ....but if you want to crack 200mph then peak power needs to be there at whatever RPM that is ?

IIRC Simon Norris's 700+ bhp EVO peaks well below 8000 rpm (6800 I think) but you may have some secret plans to exceed this http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


13th March 2003, 14:15
[quote]but you may have some secret plans to exceed this[/quote}

Like removing the brakes, bonnet, bumper and lights to save weight...

13th March 2003, 14:32
Bag.. Cat out of..

AP Racing Brakes 330mm disks.. = weight saving..

Carbon fibre bonnet.. carbon rear bumper, possible carbon front bumper, carbon door cards.. no friends, no interior, no nothing really..

oh and a red switch.. so whats the bets then... on paper what speed could I hit?


john banks
13th March 2003, 14:52
Draw us a guess power at wheels vs RPM curve from 6000-8000 RPM http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Adam M
13th March 2003, 14:58
weight should make no difference to top speed, only how quickly you can get there.

there is a chance if you shed everything that you might max out before the end of the straight.

You know my feelings about sustained high revs on a long stroke engine!

13th March 2003, 15:14
So your feelings are quite strong then Adam http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif, well strong enough to say it 3 times.

Surely less wight has a factor (simpleton here http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif), if you can get to a higher speed quicker, then you have more distance left to achieve a higher speed?


13th March 2003, 15:16
however steven, we are not factoring the distance into this yet.. just whether the car could do it...

yes I know about piston speed etc..

I dont have a clue what power..

I want to finish with about 550bhp min.


13th March 2003, 17:04
Sustained hig speed.....1.2 miles, or 1.4 if it happens to be on the day, from a standing start, isnt that long.
It will surpirse you how quick it is over....and the quicker the bettter.
If you think your car wont survive a simple 1.4 mile blast, then I would have to ask would it actually be reliable at a track day, which will recieve a lot more abuse, for a lot longer than 1.4 miles.

13th March 2003, 17:27
You'll be avin the door mirros and windscreen wipers off the car next http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I distinctly remember a red Esc turbo doing this some years ago (fast car Mag, when it was good)


13th March 2003, 18:22
andy.. what can I say...

anything to beat the Evo's and Cossies

I want 194mph top speed.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I know only one or two other contenders with the subaru badge..


14th March 2003, 10:22
eek... How what ?

14th March 2003, 17:59
sorry to butt in and piss on your chips, but is Elvington really long enough for top speed testing? - you will be really suprised at how long it takes to get to those terminal speeds

RAF Bentwaters (RIP) used to have a massive 3 mile straight - they are digging it up now - even with that you are still accelerating. The only car we managed to Vmax was a very unaerodynamic caterham.

Good Luck!

14th March 2003, 19:19
I asked Mark to put me down for this ages ago but he must of forgot. Am i to late i can promise a very serious bit of kit.

14th March 2003, 19:27
It is long enough. 2 cars, which did have a lot of power, managed very good speeds last year with only 1.2 miles from a std start. The ND Evo managed 187mph, and Ronnies Skyline did 194.6mph.
Considering these cars were pushing 130+ at the end of 500m, leaves a good bit more for further acceleration.
Ronnies Skyline has since done over 210mph I believe, at 1.4 miles.
The hardest bit is slowing down, not getting there.
While I dont think any Subaru will hit 200mph, I certainly think 180+ is quite realistic.
If the car is still accelerating at the end of a 3mile flat run, it is either very very slow, or very very very very fast, but if it is that fast, it would have taken off by the end of 3 miles

[This message has been edited by stevieturbo (edited 14 March 2003).]

14th March 2003, 20:00

Just get building that engine of mine..

Either that or dont put any oil in yours...

Suppose you can come along to scrape my bits up... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Lateral Performance Ltd
15th March 2003, 00:44

I did mention this to Anders some time ago. Since the "entries" are still to be chosen, mail Anders with your rough car spec', if you've made your mind up yet http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Possum Fink
15th March 2003, 13:08
Spec mailed http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

15th March 2003, 17:10
Cheers Mark.....Anders yhm http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
Hopeful Steve.
David engine in progress...il send you a mail soon for some final specs.

[This message has been edited by SMG (edited 15 March 2003).]

15th March 2003, 18:10
Any chance of pics of it being mailed (showing build??)


Mike Rainbird
17th March 2003, 12:15
I sincerely hope you have a closed deck block, otherwise the engine will go bang as soon as you hit the nitros button due to the high cylinder pressures and the standard block being more flexible than a contortionist! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

You will need peak power to be at least at 7k and peak torque to be at 5k and both will need to be 500+ and 400+ respectively to hit over 180, let alone 190. The Norris Evo was pushing 580bhp to get to a "mere" 187mph, so if you want to hit 194, you will need MUCH more power than that (because as I said, aerodynamic resistance increases expotentially). Concentrate on improving the aerodynamics, as this will give you "free" speed. Making the entire underneath of the car flat is worth 5-7mph (as well as having the added benfit of keeping you from taking off http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif )!

I would love to see a Scooby hit 180+, but I only know of one that could do it - step forward "dark destroyer" http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif. You know who you are, as you were at last year's event... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif (which should give you all a clue as to whom I mean).

Adam M
17th March 2003, 13:06
Just read the thread on scoobynet, and I think carl has some good points.


interesting list that one you posted.

Surprised at the dodge viper, its odd what you think is visually slippery, and what actually is aerodynamically slippery, plus very surprised by the 0.7 of the formula one car.


i thought exponential meant in terms of powers of e, but aerodynamic drag is proportional to the square of the velocity, not an exponent http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/confused.gif.

On another note, I am still yet to see an impreza engine that has failed purely as a result of the block flexing, so where is your proof that that is the reason? I would be more concerned about sustained high revs with a long throw crank, but to ease your mind, i think wallis' block is very likely to be closed, after all the dark destroyer (who is about to be no longer the only impreza with his power output) has had a lot of input.

and btw, the norris evo has less power than we are talking about and more weight than a stripped out impreza (only a factor if it was still accelerating), I darent think how much worse the cda rating of an evo is too.

I still am yet to understand what everyones obsession is with max speed.

It isnt anything near as exhilarating as accelerating, as constant speed of a reference frame is undetectable with your eyes closed!

Our tangential speed is roughly a thousand miles an hour, and I dread to think how fast we are orbiting the sun (consider the linear element of the velocities).

Top speed is more than anything else likely to kill you, and your engine, and I have to tell you we dont stand a chance against the skylines anyway.

the only reason I would gear my car for 200mph, is so that I can cruise at 100mph @ 4k rpm.

Our cars simply were not built for top speed, so why pretend. They were designed for a job which they do very well indeed, I think it is expecting too much to make them a master of all trades.

Adam M
17th March 2003, 13:14
Might I also suggest looking at this thread on the GTR register (http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4291&perpage=15&highlight=aerodynamics&pagenumber=1). It does appear to be related to the skyline but there is a lot of explanantion there, and as I have said before, mycroft really does know what he is talking about.

Mike Rainbird
17th March 2003, 13:41
Although a body moving at a velocity of 100 kilometers per hour has a velocity that is five times that of a body moving at 20 kilometers per hour, the aerodynamic resistance is about 25 times as great at the higher velocity.

Also, how many cars do you know that are running 30+psi of boost plus NOS on a standard block. When you do that, then you will see one flex from cylinder pressures. Why do you think they go to a closed deck design for big power engines if the standard ones could take the pressures involved?

Standard engines invariably fail through the inherent poor design of No.3 cylinder which runs considerably hotter than the rest due to its location. It then picks up a bearing and lunches the engine. If you cured this through relocation of the turbo etc, you still wouldn't be able to run big power through the standard block, as it is just not strong enough.

I suggest that you speak to the people on here who have done loads of development work (Pat et al), as you will find that Scooby tuning is just common sense like all other tuning, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and you need all the proper components.

It is always the "bolt on" brigade that cause the engines to fail, as it is invariably ill-considered. If you think an exhaust, filter and remap will make a Scooby a fire-breathing monster, then you are sorely mistaken. You will only get just over 300bhp (RELIABLY) unless you go internal and cure the inherent design faults. It costs 10k to build a proper Scooby engine with just 400bhp, purely because so much of the standard componentry has to be junked. Compare this to a Cossie, which costs half that for the same engine dyno-confirmed power, due to the fact that the engine was built to go racing in the first place and not built to a budget power figure (as in the cheapest way to get under 300bhp reliably like the Scoob engine was built for).

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 17 March 2003).]

Mike Rainbird
17th March 2003, 15:14
Please point out where I say it CAN'T be done. I know it CAN be done, but it has to be done with the right bits and you will find that there are only a few that have experimented with the right bits to get something that lasts more than a few minutes http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif. Ask Pat how many engines he has gone through to find out what works and what doesn't http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif .

All I was trying to point out is that the Scoob engine as standard, is inherently week and the "bolt-on" brigade will NOT get the power they seek or hope for with "bolt-on" parts. To get a powerful Scoob engine, the whole thing has to be re-engineered and properly live mapped on an ENGINE dyno.

No offence taken, as my hat goes off to the likes of Pat that have not accepted the UKs backwardness with Scooby engine's and has gone and done what was said couldn't be done.

Perhaps you should re-read my post and absorb the content... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Adam M
17th March 2003, 15:15
Paul, no posts have been deleted, something was up as the saem happened to me. It appears to be ok now.

Mike Rainbird
17th March 2003, 15:29
I saw your response and my reply was to that. Have no idea what happened to it though http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif.

As to my "presumptuousness", show me a dead Scooby and I'll show you all the mismatched "bolt-on, magazine said it was good for 3,000bhp http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif items" on it... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

There seems to be only a few that seem to realise that if you even change the exhaust on a Scooby that the boost can increase to the point that it can cause a Scoob to destroy itself through lack of fuelling to match, so needs the ECU modifiying to suit. The Scoob is much more in need of fettling with even minor mods than almost any other car that I can think of.

What you might call "good" power and what I would call "good" power are probably two different things http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif. I would NEVER use a standard block on any "big engine" and I notice that neither would you... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Adam M
17th March 2003, 15:58

Mike you make me laugh.

full respect to you for your cossie work, I have met you many times and we have chatted in the past, plus we have talked in the past about my impreza project so its possible you may have forgotted my own plans.

I am just saying, that we have seen open deck cars making great power, harveys for a start. I dont doubt that higher power and nitrous will generate greater stresses, I just dont think we should casually say open deck is not strong enough.

For your info, my own engine is closed deck, adn I wouldnt do it any other way.

I do liek the way you have solved the number three big end bearing thing though, thanks!

just out of interest you might like to know, that there are no more occurences of number three failure than number 4 or 2, not seen many number 1s though.

In japan, number four failure is far far more common than the rest.

In short, no one is quite sure why it happens, many ave theories, and the best thing to do is bear in mind everyones solutions and take whichever bits you agree with. I am keen ont he prodrive oil pressure relief valve piston modification which roger clarke motorsport provide. I have one of their pumps for both engines I am building (having built).

If its worth anything to you, the water jacket in the ej series block is actually very good (much worse with a closed deck block) and localised hot spots around number three dont seem to be an issue at all.

This wasnt meant to sound antagonistic, so apologies if it has done.

I would speak to these people you are mentioning and see if I can learn from them, but one is on holiday (dont worry spoken to him today to attempt to get interntional roaming sorted for him), the other I am currently on the phone to about arranging modifying the pectel loom for the dyno,
and another has not spoken to me yet today as he is a little busy software developing for a tight group project deadline. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

in short, dont worry, I have my contacts, this community is too small for someone with a mouth as big as mine to not know who the right people to speak to are.

the only thing I regret is not being able to speak to the scottish contingent so much as some useful bridges could well be built.

Adam M
17th March 2003, 15:58

I call good power 600+, and good torque 600+.
It will make over 500 of each, I am certain of it, but I am thinking about achieing these goals and stopping there. I would like the car to be a daily driver and am certain that being able to produce this with decent low down torque at 200bhp/litre would suit me fine.

Am hoping it will beable to run it reliably, and am not fussed about chasing the limits of the engine.

Done of the long engine components is suspect at these power levels.

the only thing that concerns me, which others seem to fudge over is the inherently small bearing load area, but there is little if nothing that can be done about these.

Pats 3.3 is probably a better idea, greater capacity, inherently balanced engine with no dodgy second order harmonics, 7 main bearings, 2/3 the load on each big end bearing for the same power output, and a lower specific power output.

If it werent for the complexity and weight, I would probably go that way myself.

Am coming round to what andy f has been saying about how much power you can conceivably use on the road. Big numbers are fun for days like elvington but dont really allow you to enjoy your pride and joy on a day to day basis.

I am competative, but am happy to lose if I enjoyed the fight, I worry that too many people might get obsessed with winning.

I think I would rather turn up in style at elvington. Watch the stress, and then burn away again in style at the end of the day in the knowledge that my car looks cooler than everyone elses, and has awesome to moderately phenominal super car crushing performance to match even if i didnt have the balls to take it on track! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif!

Mike Rainbird
17th March 2003, 16:34
So you're saying it is possible to get 600+bhp aand 600lbft of torque from the standard block http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif ?

I am also going down the same route as you. My Escort is all going to be about driveability and will only have 450ish bhp (currently just over 400bhp). I have had the big power conversion and it was a great track car, but the Escort leaves my Sapphire for dead as an all round "jack of all trades (but master of none)" car, rather than an all or nothing 500+bhp car. The diffs have all been changed for Quaife items and I will be concentrating on the handling as well (all ready does amazing times around Bedford, but can be improved as it still understeers a fraction).

Probably best if you read my post in a "if the cap fits" type way. From that I mean, if you have gone down the proper engineering route, then ignore my comments about "bolt-on" parts (and my hat is off to you). It was intended as a sweeping generalisation that seems to encompass the general Scooby form of "bolt-on" tuning that makes me laugh. However, as I stated, I have the utmost respect for anyone that has actually thought about what is needed, stripped the engine down and figured it all out for themselves and got the results. At the time, the only people that I had seen do that were Mark and Pat.

I'm sure you must be just as frustrated about the bolt-on "claims" when you know from experience how much work has to go into a pukka engine.

17th March 2003, 17:00
Mike... I emailed you as I was interested in the gearing etc with your car..

I didnt explain the spec of my car, and believe me its not just bolt on parts.. well it is as all car modifications are...

However everything that is being done is being done for a reason.... some people think that the four fuel pumps are ott..

I dont. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mark has input into my project, so does pat, steve, paul, andyf, john banks, harvey, anders, moray, p20spd I could go on... oops better as I forgot adam http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Knows he wont get 200mph but would like to try..

Engine is a budget closed deck block (block cost more than the airfilters worth!)

not std though..

Adam M
17th March 2003, 17:09
no, for 600, I would only consider closing, but then I have had closed decks at 300 too.

My cars have always had closed deck blocks as they came that way.

if you have quaifes all round, i am sure that many of us on this board would love to know what you think of using an atb for a centre diff as it is something I am really aching to try.

Mike Rainbird
17th March 2003, 17:37
Investigated this, but you have to use their gearbox to run centre diff and it does not have suitable ratios.

17th March 2003, 18:18
Bolt ons have worked well for me, mind you I count anything that doesn't involve actually cracking the engine open as a bolt on http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

75% up on standard power with bolt ons, 25k miles later and proud of it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Even if it munched a clutch and I broke a selector rod...

I have so got to top 180mph this year http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

17th March 2003, 19:56
Tim.. you cant do it.. an impreza cant do that speed http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

17th March 2003, 20:35
But a Legacy might http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

17th March 2003, 23:54
Right, that sounds like a welding gauntlet being thrown down to me Wallis...

Undertray here we come...


Adam M
18th March 2003, 09:22
did none of you read the aerodynamics thread on the skyline register thatg I linked to?

You cant just bolt on a diffuser and undertray without knowing what you are doing and having the facility to do it properly, its bloody dangerous.

And this mentality of "someone said it cant be done, so I am gonna prove them wrong" its so stupid!

I remember some idiot back in my younger days struggling to fit 36 subwoofers in a citroen bx and I asked him why, he said because someone said it couldnt be done! I swiftly told him 100 couldnt be done."
Basically, I heard 290mph cant be done, are you gonna aim for that? no because its not going to happen in a road going impreza which can still turn corners and isnt a spaced framed top fuel funny car.

But its a challeneg as valid as the 200mph one so why do you dismiss it? because you have drawn the line, why dont you draw the line and ignore stupid challenges that can get you killed.

By all means have a go, but dont start seriously messing with aerodynamics unless you are prepared to pay for proper development.

A few equations and a book do not an aerodynamics engineer make.

18th March 2003, 11:31
Very true words Adam.

18th March 2003, 12:11
yeah.. so true.. cant do 290mph..

Adam.. Im not planning on bolting anything stupid on, however sti rear spoiler..

no rear bumper...

Then Im prepared to have a go.. if the car feels unstable Ill back off..

(If I get in..)

Michael's legacy will be another contender http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Tim Bring it on! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


Adam M
18th March 2003, 12:31
not having a go, so dont be put off by what I am saying,

remember that my cda rating is higher because my a is higher.

Bloody phatass!

knew one day I would find a disadvantage to those awesome wheel arches!

18th March 2003, 12:35
Adam, im not into highspeed anyway.. certainly not continous.. Will be setting a speed limiter in the ecu if the option is there at 90mph.

Im sad but Id like a lesurely (sp) drive down the straight just too see what i have to drive over.. remember ronnie ripping his splitter off the car?

Then go for a balls out run..

order i would prefer are...

high speed
Quarter mile..

Destroy the box last http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Adam M
18th March 2003, 12:46
handling/comfort on road
quarter mile
handling on track

limit speed to 150, just so that it doesnt stop me seeing what quarter mile I can do.

Will not be happy unless car can get into tens. am thinking 5-600bhp shuld be enough.

Weight is approaching sub 1200kg with what has come out.

Adam M
18th March 2003, 13:31
and your point is?

I did modules in thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, cryogenics, gravitation and cosmology, laser physics, photonics..............

one small aspect of my degree does not mean I am about to build a rocket, freeze helium down to absolute zero, invent a gravity engine, or design an fridge with efficiency higher than 100%.

Sorry paul.

At least I now know how you know so much about everything I am interested in relating to cars.

A fine course that one. An inventor I know won a scholarship from ford to do that course. It is very highly acclaimed.

He designs dashboard software and ecus, he also knows that he is not an aerodynamic engineer.

I take your point, but we are talking about messing with something that can flip the car at dangerous speeds, not something that worse case scenario may cause your engine to fail catastrophically.

18th March 2003, 14:47
If we all believed that going faster was impossible, we would all drive 1.0 corsas.
We dont, and we enjoy trying to make them faster in every way. 200mph may not be realistic, but it will be fun trying.
And, if teh car has the power to achieve close to 200mph, then it should also be quite enjoyable on a track, or wherever the owner intends to drive it.
Rarely would I ever believe a tuning firm that says something is impossible, as time and time again, people prove them wrong.
Its so much better when a DIY'er does it too.

18th March 2003, 14:54
Nice one Paul http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

I prefer to follow the flock myself http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

18th March 2003, 15:08

I remember when I started, there were only a few people that also had the crazy Ideas I did.. Isnt that right Andy, or should I say cossie convert http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif


Adam M
18th March 2003, 15:16

david is the one who is doing stuff because people said it couldnt be done.

I think everything you have done is a great achievement, the same goes for wallis, and forrest, and definitely to pat.

I wouldnt dream of trying to take that away from you.

I am just saying that something like this in particular shouldnt be taken lightly as it can have far worse consequences than the other projects you mentioned (except possibly the injectors would could have resulted in a major fire, but then that would be more easy to predict happening).

And out of interest, I can see no reason why you shouldnt build your own engine!

18th March 2003, 20:29
Excellent idea Paul, I'd like to be involved in that http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif Best to concentrate on one model of car though I would have thought ? Go along with loads of gizmos on the car then pull them off one at a time to check the lift/drag.

FWIW I also find the high speed aerodynamics stuff a bit daunting. The V8 car I built from scratch had the gearing and the power to run 210 mph .... Even although it got to 150mph in 9. something seconds I was never over 160mph in it !
I was confident in all my engine/transmission/suspension and steering designs but the aerodynamics ?? Although it had the correct bits on paper (flat floor, diffuser and aerofoil), It had not been tested in a tunnel at various rake/yaw angles. Being mid engined I wasn't prepared to risk it.
It's when you see the 'lift off' speeds for some aircraft that you have second thoughts !


PS Paul - You can't prep me a 2.5 block for under 200 http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

18th March 2003, 23:57
I shall take some pics for you.

Andy Tang
19th March 2003, 09:58

Well said and good luck! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

There are many people who said a lot of things can't be done, and yet when they are proved wrong the come back is that your car will blow up!!!

I got no end of grief 18 months ago for wanting to strap on a big turbo and FMIC on a MY99 UK car. My target was 350bhp, but all I got from people was... Blah, blah.. open deck..blah.. blow up..blah.. not possible... weak UK block.. blah blah!

Now 18 months later, people do it without thinking about it!

At the time the only people who believed it could be done was BRD, Steve Lawson, Jan Shim and Nito. They were the only people who didn't think I was mad!!

All I can say is prove them wrong Paul! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I await your next 2.5 CDB installment with baited breath! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Adam M
19th March 2003, 10:33
no one is saying it cant be done.

it can be done!

lamborhini diablos and murcielagos, F40s, mclaren f1s (by miles), jag xj220s, mercedes sl 55 amgs can all break 200mph with similar if not less power http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Andy, I am sorry but getting 350bhp from a UK engine is not the same, worse case scenario it blows up and costs money, in this case if it goes wrong people can die!

You must have seen the mercedes over the brow of the hill, and that had had experts with wind tunnel facilities developing it.

With proper testing in a wind tunnel it is feasible, but I dont think it is wise casually approach this.

I know it is possible that is not in question, I just dont want to see anyone get hurt by not doing it properly.

And it is not simply a case of lifting off if it feels unstable.

As andy says, we are talking aircraft take off speeds here. if the front goes light the angle of the body work to the incident air will change, all it takes is for this angle to generate slightly more lift and the rate at which the front lifts increases. All of a sudden you have 200mph winds pushing up against the bottom of the car and over it goes.

I dont know how likely or unlikely this is as I know nothing about aerodynamics, I just dont want people getting hurt just because its fun to prove the doubters wrong.

19th March 2003, 11:31
oh well.. in that case rollcage time..


19th March 2003, 13:46
Some aircraft ( both large and small )also take of at speeds at well below or around 100mph, so does that mean we shouldnt go try??
Ronnies Skyline does over 200mph, and has few, if any aerodynamic mods.
It is a challenge, and with most challenges come risks.
FFS the last day at Elvington in October that was rained of, there were more crashes outside the track, from people on their way, than inside, despite a short day due to weather.
Motorsport is dangerous, no one says it isnt. They accept it, and get on with it, and enjoy.

One rumour I heard recently though, although cannot confrim if it is true, is that apparently there is a new rule, that any car that will do a sub 12sec 1/4 or over 120mph must be fitted with a cage.
Not sure if it refers to RWYB style events for road cars, or competition events, but it may just be talk.

Besides, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow, and that wouldnt be any fun.

19th March 2003, 13:51
And proper bucket seats with 6 point harnesses...

It is a quite a daunting prospect when you think about it...ok my car 'seemed' stable at the speed I went through the trap at, but it was only run at those speeds for a very short distance and period of time. I hate to think what it would have been like in a cross wind, or if it was gusting.

I think it is fairly safe to say that none of us really know what a scoob behaves like at speeds over 180mph and I mean proven, not rpm based theory let alone speedo indicated http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

It would be great to get our hands on a full size wind tunnel, but a little optimistic! Even if we could club togehter for some tests, there probably wouldn't be enough time or money really available to us to test out various different ideas (scoops, bonnets, bumpers, spoilers, under trays, ducts, suspension settings, wheels, geometry etc)

My next thought though is how good are some of the scale models you can buy? How good are any of our modeling skills, and does anyone have access to a scale wind tunnels at a university for example? From memory we had a rig at Brookes and I have a contact there...Loughborough will have a rig too...I'd love to try and blag a favour from some of the companies I work with in aerospace, automotive and motorsport, but I think I'd be pushing my luck jsts a bit http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Adam M
19th March 2003, 13:59
The skyline with an exhaust does slightly over 180mph. The car is a proven racer with the basic shell having aerodynamics tested to speeds relevant to lemans 24hour etc, plus it was tested on the nurburgring.

The impreza was designed for rallying, and a max speed of around 140mph, where in testing it would ahve spent little of its time.

Certainly it would be tested at well over 100mph or lower lift off speeds of a cessna commuter.

That is not the point. There is no argument here, so why are people trying to discoutn what I am saying.

The fact is it is risky, and there is a chance of getting seriously hurt.

I am not saying dont do it, or it cant be done, just that the risks are greater than when pushing other boundaries.

I only live my life, and I dont care for such trophies, I just want people to think of the potential consequences before rising to challenges just to prove a point.

19th March 2003, 15:09
For once http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif I'm with Adam on this one

To take a car which develops substantial lift in its standard shape and start to aim for 200 mph is asking for trouble. The lift also increases proportional to the square of the speed. So you have a token 70lbs lift at 70mph, it becomes 571 lbs at 200 mph and thats assuming the car is not increasing in ground clearance as the lift affects it !

So you bolt a spoiler/splitter/areofoil on that reduces that lift to zero.....it had better be a strong one to support 571 lbs downforce and probably 100+ lbs drag ! These figures will be even higher if you are actully looking for downforce.

This example is a gross over simplification but hopefully raises a few questions re top speeds ?

19th March 2003, 15:43
Im not saying I want 200mph top speed.. just would like to cross the line at 190mph.. is this such a problem..

I thought one impreza managed 180mph last time but had to back off??


Adam M
19th March 2003, 16:24
cant believe andy agrees with me.

I now resign from this bbs. Clearly I have reached the pinnacle http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

On a serious note, dont think ronnie did any testing, so, if he can do that ona skyline then obviously its fine to do ii on an impreza too.


there is nothing special about 200mph, marks car at 180 might have been just on the edge of catastrophe, then again, it may not!


Do these tests for lift state the spring and damping rates of the suspension and the ground clearance, and hence the relative height of the front to the back? do they take into the change in ground clearance due to the expansion of the tyres at that speed? (I presume this is a genuine factor since it affected the top speed of the McLaren F1).

These are all serious questions, not attempts by me to make a point.

Mike Rainbird
19th March 2003, 17:02
If a shonky old Sapphire http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif can do 180+mph, with very few aerodynamic modifications, then I think you are worrying too much. To achieve the desired level of stability I fitted the RS500 front splitter, Escort Cosworth engine undertray and set the car's stance slightly nose down, bum up (coilovers). Hours were spent on corner weighting to get the car as neutral handling as possible (was almost 50/50 front to rear and left to right). With this set up, it always felt totally planted at any speed. With the front end feeling particularly pinned to the ground (no hint of lift or wander). I think if you smoothed the underneath of the car totally, this would be sufficient to pull it down to the ground even more and reduce the drag / turbulance from the exposed parts underneath.

19th March 2003, 17:55
Mike, my car with coil overs on is nose down arse up as well, it promotes oversteer over understeer apparently, maybe this is why it felt so stable at over 160...

I also thought it was interesting that Plantie's car (an RB5 with the WR rear spoiler and P1 front lip) running not to disimilar power to mine was 3 mph slower than I was...I put this down to the rear spoiler (I have the stock uk low spoiler) on his car creating more drag...maybe my car's stance had a play in this as well...

19th March 2003, 21:04
When did Marks car do 180 mph ?

Is it going back on the road ?

Last time I saw it was in the rain at the back of Town End Garage a few weeks ago with an empty engine bay and it had been there since last Autumn.

It would be a good thing if this board could return to the solid technical content it used to have which benefited those who wanted to learn instead of the spin and hypothesies which are not fact based.

Some guys have got too much time on their hands and fill the board with rubbish or dreams.

19th March 2003, 21:59
Apparently Marks car had revved out before the line last year, whatever top speed that may equate to, perhaps this is the 180mph they are referring to?. He then let off, so the measured speed across the line was not his true max speed.
While care and thought should be taken as to modifications etc, I also agee, some people do seem to have too much time on their hands, but then, their cars arent on the road, so perhaps its part of the reason why.
AFAIK the only reason Ronnie ( and other cars that day ) removed spoilers, was simply because their car did go faster without it. Ronnies car also had a damaged front splitter that day after hitting a dip/pothole near the end of the track, at high speed, and this was before the final 190+mph run.

19th March 2003, 22:10
Lighten up chaps! It's only a bit of friendly banter http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif which is what life should be all about really!

Anyway there's a fair amount of technical info floating around on here, plus for those of us with cars in pieces, limited funds and no access to their car every day it's a chance to question where, why and what if...

I'm getting a few ideas from here that I'd like to try mainly out of curiosity than anything else...

Adam M
19th March 2003, 23:34
I dont recall mark bragging about an uncomfirmed top speed, but he did max out in top gear which equates to about 180 before you account for tire expansion, but since no one is stating this as a record who cares?

As stated by stevie, he backed off as the car was overfuellingby around 30% despite getting to max speed long before the marker.

I think he crossed the line at a record 37mph! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I believe Pat was in the car, but then he has been known to be a complete idiot and is no doubt incapable of reading a laptop aswell as a datalog, but then I am sure neither of those things are any business but marks and pats.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 19 March 2003).]

20th March 2003, 00:19
Adam, no passengers were aloud on the runs up the strip or on the handling circuit...

Mark did indeed abort each of his top speed runs, the car was too 'green' for his liking on the day...

I think we can safely say that it is certainly possible to produce enough power to top 180...but the aerodynamics/stability questions still linger http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

20th March 2003, 09:04
Just taken this from 200 plus club's website


Sunday 3rd August Ten of the Best 2
The 10 fastest cars from each club go head to head. Spectators welcome. Email or phone if you wish to be considered for a place.

Think that confirms it is the 3rd of August then.


Adam M
20th March 2003, 10:05
Pat was in the car during flat out mapping, perhaps not during the runs, but it is of no significance since no one is making any claims.

20th March 2003, 10:31
No however I was stood next to pat whilst looking at the datalogs...

Anybody fancy quoting what the pectel can do in terms of data logging.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

I may have too much time on my hands, give me a new job.. Consultancy or perm. 750 Per day please and Ill consider it.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

In the mean time im out to enjoy the spare time and learn something.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I also have plenty of time free as my engine is being built for me and the car is off the road http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Oh how im going to enjoy the 3rd of August..

PS Harvey, think your mistaken about marks car being at TEG http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif

It vanished a couple of days after I was near the car armed with Marks car keys http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by David_Wallis (edited 20 March 2003).]

20th March 2003, 12:13

Re : "On a serious note, dont think ronnie did any testing, so, if he can do that ona skyline then obviously its fine to do ii on an impreza too."

The skyline was designed for GT racing. The V-SPEC has a carbon fibre flat undertray and diffuser. The Impreza was not designed for such high speed use. For example, the standard impreza has aerodynamics related intercooling issues above certain speeds.

Re: "Pat was in the car during flat out mapping, perhaps not during the runs, but it is of no significance since no one is making any claims."

But earlier in the thread you wrote :

"there is nothing special about 200mph, marks car at 180 might have been just on the edge of catastrophe, then again, it may not!"

Which does sound an incey wincey bit like a claim to my untrained eyes. Is this the first time that someone has mentioned the alledged 180mph in this thread (owning up to not having read all of it here) ?


Adam M
20th March 2003, 12:27

no i was not the first, mike rainbird referred to a black subaru doing those sorts of speeds, but didnt confirm it was mark.

no that is still not a claim anyway, as it is not proven by crossing the speed trap, and is also not being stated by mark.

I am perfectly at liberty to say mark was doing 300mph if I want to. I cant prove it or disprove it, and most likely neither can anyone else, but it was not my claim to make.

I cant exactly brag about someone elses achievement, because it is nothing to do with me. Since mark has said nothing with reference to any of this, I dont see why the 180mph is in dispute, it was merely a passing comment which I am not in a position to put open to scrutiny. The fact that Harvey saw fit to question it is his perogative.

I dont see why it is so unreasonable. We know the engine was making XXXbhp http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif and we know it was making XXXlbft, even if running fuelling out by 30% with a drop of 100bhp from the engne dyno figures, 180mph would still be a walk in the park.

So it cant be proven, who cares? too much testosterone flying round this thread for my liking!

20th March 2003, 12:32
aww.. Adam feels inadaquate (sp?? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif )


[This message has been edited by David_Wallis (edited 20 March 2003).]

20th March 2003, 14:02

Thanks for clearing that up. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

No comment on my Skyline/Impreza design observation? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif


20th March 2003, 14:40
Hmmm, my car does the standing start 500 mtrs run within 0.5 seconds of Marks but only achieves 140 mph .... I must be doing something wrong http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

20th March 2003, 14:51
... or maybe Mark wasn't launching quite as wel as you! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Adam M
20th March 2003, 16:02
have you seen the video?

there is no question he wasnt launching very well!

20th March 2003, 16:46
I have the video footage of each run from my camcorder on my desk..

Ill convert it to wmv when I work out how..

20th March 2003, 17:29
Marks launches def did look quite relaxed. It makes the 500m time/speed look more impressive because of it.
A good launch would have taken a good bit of time of the run.

20th March 2003, 18:28
JUN 600 HP Subaru WRX (GC8) doing 309 km/h (192mph)on a *wet* NZ road.

Driver: Sosumu Koyama from JUN.

Go to the videos section and then various and you can download the in-car video...not sure if this helps you guys or not?!

20th March 2003, 21:19
Marks launches were deffinately relazed IMO, IIRC an old Civic had him until he got well into second, and then ... well...

20th March 2003, 21:22
Guys, I wasn't serious http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif My car is only geared for 140 mph http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

20th March 2003, 23:14
Our contenders still are not finalised.

Could you all please re submit by e-mail your specs and dyno outputs (bench or road) to me.

Title [ten of the best contenders]

I am abroad quite a bit for next month, will catch up with John soon to make definitive list then http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

[This message has been edited by Anders (edited 20 March 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Anders (edited 20 March 2003).]

20th March 2003, 23:56
Perhaps driver and passengers should all be issued with Parachute if any journey likely to exceed 150 ? http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Ejection seat a possible consideration ? Should be able to pick up and old Martin Baker for not much these days..... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif



21st March 2003, 01:08
I have just looked at the datalogs from Elvington to determine what the actual figures are. I will not post the actual figures without Mark's permission, however I can state that the car did not hit 180 MPH. I can also state the the car was not running full boost.

It would appear that my long held belief that Mark could actually make a cup of coffee in the time it takes him to change gears is well founded http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif Mark spent almost two and a half seconds of his 13.45 second run changing gears!
If Mark chooses to go for a top speed run this year, then I have no doubt that the car would hit the rev limiter in top well before the timing gate, the gearing is not suited to high speed runs, the limiter would activate at just over 200 MPH.

My own gearing is a bit taller, but because I will not have the full build ready in time, I shall have to respect the hydraulic tapets' disdain for revs over 7000, thus limiting my top speed to 187MPH. The full build should do 220 MPH before the gate, and the 500m in about 11s maybe less, but like I said, it won't be ready for this year's event http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif



Mike Rainbird
21st March 2003, 08:32
At no time did I mention the speed of Mark's car, just that the power was a genuine dyno achieved (high http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif) figure.

Can't wait until next year then... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Adam M
21st March 2003, 09:58
Mike, you are indeed correct.

I read this:

"I would love to see a Scooby hit 180+, but I only know of one that could do it - step forward "dark destroyer" . You know who you are, as you were at last year's event... (which should give you all a clue as to whom I mean)."

as you stating that you had seen a scooby hit 180mph.

My mistake!

21st March 2003, 10:42
To be honest, top speed isn't "my thing", I may be able to use it on the Autobahn but it's not really much use in the UK. The gearing is tall because the engine is big, it will allow me to cruise at 70 MPH below 3000 RPM, but that should still be above my boost threshold http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

I've spent a long time messing about with smaller engines and trying to get good power and torque out of them, and this has almost invariably been at the expense of low down grunt, I just can't find a turbo that will pull in low yet still flow well at the top. Given that I spend most of the time driving on the road, and very little time on track, I figured that a "lazy" engine might be a good idea.

The engine I have chosen makes more power and torque, in normally aspirated trim, than a UK Turbo 2000 or WRX ever does. The turbos are cute litte Garrett ball bearing jobs, which combined with the much shorter manifold design should ensure a low boost threshold, but they're also tough little puppies which will happily run 2 bar all day long and each will flow enough air for 350 BHP. I also have the option of swapping the wheels and/or covers just in case I lose my sanity and decide that pulling 0.66 G in top gear isn't sufficient http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif



21st March 2003, 11:55
Pat http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

When can we see the photos...

Interested to see what you did with the crank pulley in the end..


21st March 2003, 15:03
Polo, the rad with a hole in it...

21st March 2003, 19:50
Rotflmao http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Paul you have just in one fell swoop brightend my day...thank you!

21st March 2003, 22:45
David: Like I said, Marks car was at TEG a few weeks ago, with an empty engine bay and had been there since late Autumn. I have no idea where it is now, could even be in your garage, but one thing is for sure, it could not leave TEG under its own steam when I saw it so did you use a car trailer ?

When the car was run at Elvington it was still being mapped and de-bugged by Pat and Mark and on the day it was not developing anything like its potential and just like Pat said, it did NOT reach 180mph or anything like it.

These stories of 180mph are just another myth that has entered Scooby folklore and at no time during that day did Mark make any claims for anything like that speed, so I guess the rumour mill is to be blamed.

Adam M
21st March 2003, 23:31
Harvey there is no rumour mill hill here.

As you say mark has not made any claims.

and pat has confirmed from the data logs that it didnt hit 180mph. He didnt say how far short it fell though did he?

Unless you have seen the data log then you dont know the truth so dont be so quick to insist it wasnt even close.

22nd March 2003, 00:04
Like I said, I am not at liberty to discuss the exact figures without Mark's permission, and I really don't want to disturb him. I'll only state that the actual speed could not be achieved with standard STi gearing, it's not tall enough. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions.


22nd March 2003, 13:05
Adam: Have you deleted a previous post ?

I said : "These stories of 180mph are just another myth that has entered Scooby folklore"

Adam said : "Harvey, there is no rumour mill here".

You said previously : "There is nothing special about 200mph, Marks car at 180 might have been on the edge of catastrophe, then again it may not!".

However, there was at least one other post in answer to a question from David Wallis.

How many posts have been removed ?

22nd March 2003, 16:50
I removed all mine, like trying to discuss geography with the flat earth society.


22nd March 2003, 20:05
There is no question that a scooby can do 180MPH. I watched a nice video of one doing 309 kph today, which is just 4 MPH shy of the magic 200. The question is only whether someone is either brave / foolish enough to try.

Just out of interest, you might like to buy a copy of New Zealand Performance Car Magazine, Issue 40 (April 2000) which featured an Impreza doing 309 kph http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif That was 3 years ago, I think we may have found the extra 4 MPH by now....

So please, let's not dispute whether 180 MPH can or cannot be done, because it HAS been done, and documented. The real question is whether anyone is going to try doing it this year at Elvington, and if so, what aerodynamic aids would be appropriate?



Lateral Performance Ltd
22nd March 2003, 21:42
I don't know, leave you guys alone for a few days, and I still manage to get involved in an arguement http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

I could only "guestimate" my speed at Elvington, since my none standard gearing threw the speedo out (not that it could be trusted anyway) and I only had the RPM's to go on, and even that was a fleeting glance. To be honest, I estimated it to be somewhat closer to 170mph, although IIRC, it was at circa 7500rpm. The engine was misfiring really badly due to the over fuelling, and whilst I was hoping to be able to feather the throttle to the timing gate, when I looked up to see where it was, I couldn't see it, and decided it was better to lift off, than blow the engine......

I've not personally checked the data logs, but Pat is welcome to post the results.

Harvey's right. Up until a few weeks ago, my car was at TEG, minus engine, but I thought that was common knowledge, since I had already posted about snapping a piston gudgeon pin.

Just for the record, this happened at 4800rpm, at about max torque, but I don't think many others will have the same problem. However, based with this knowledge, it was decided that it would be best to replace the gudgeon pins in a few other engine builds going on at the moment.

As for my starts, and gear changes, I think Pat said it all........ I'm cr*p http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif guess I need some more practice.


22nd March 2003, 22:29
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just for the record, this happened at 4800rpm, at about max torque, but I don't think many others will have the same problem<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't think?

Many others?

Better choice of words perhaps?


Adam M
23rd March 2003, 01:50
I count two paul.

I specced the JE pistons with the thicker crown, thicker gudgeon pin and specific comression for standard 2.5 goeometry.


I have not deleted any "recent" posts of mine or anyone elses.

There was some funny issue going on the other day which I think moray sorted out and as a result I deleted a post of mine but I think that was on page 4 and before you posted.

23rd March 2003, 08:49
you count two what Adam?

Two more people that will have the same problem? I'm hoping that there will be absolutely NO more people with snapping gudgeon pins.


Lateral Performance Ltd
23rd March 2003, 09:32

I can only comment on the builds that Steve (SMG) and I are involved in, but gudgeon pin strength WON'T be an issue in these cases.

My comments about other people having the same problem, were based on the unlikelyhood that many, if any, of the "current" engines out there, are producing a similar level of torque at circa 4800rpm, that my engine did. A 2.0lt would have to be running over 3bar of boost.

However, since there are several people either in the process of, or about to build larger capacity engines, it's something to be aware of.


Adam M
23rd March 2003, 11:03
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pblamire:

Many others?

Better choice of words perhaps?


two others!

23rd March 2003, 11:39
I would imagine that most people would agree that if an engine management system can accurately place a spark to within a quarter of a degree of crank rotation at up to 16,000 RPM, then it should have no trouble at all determining the actual engine RPM. It was based on engine revs, the gearbox ratios, the final drives and the tyre size that I was working out the car speed.

The logs indicate the the car accelerated from standstill to 6900 RPM in just over 21 seconds, and then Mark lifted off somewhat, yet kept accelerating up to 7160 RPM. Given the gearing and tyre size, that equates to 169.4 MPH leading up to a maximum speed of 175.7 MPH, which isn't far shy of the 180 that was being mentioned.

The logs indicate that the maximum boost seen at any point on the run was 1.87 bar, but the average was lower. It also indicates that the car was massively overfuelling, the lambda reading was so rich it was off the scale!

So, given the correct amount of fuel and boost, there is no reason that the car could not reach 200 MPH, but it would need to run up to 8148 RPM, which is well within the design limits of the new engine but I don't know about Mark's "bottle" limit http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif



23rd March 2003, 11:40
One thing about teh top speed runs. The actual final timing marker wasnt very noticeable at all, and I dont really think it was marked. I was watching for the timing gear, as there was a few items placed before the finish line that would have made you think it was much sooner than it actually was.
Something to make Chris aware of for this years events. In a car that may be doing 180+, no 1 wants to have to be actually thinking about where the finish line is. It should be clearly visible.

Lateral Performance Ltd
23rd March 2003, 13:00
Thanks Pat.

I agree about the timing gate. I just recall looking up to see where it was, and couldn't see it. The main problem for me, was that it was actually quite some way ahead, more so than the size of the board.

I don't know if the data logs give enough info to estimate at what distance I hit 170mph ?


Adam M
23rd March 2003, 16:25
Mark, if you plot a velocity time graph, then the area under the graph will be the the distance travelled.

By entering the speeds etc into excel it should be very easy to work out the total distance at any point.

Lateral Performance Ltd
23rd March 2003, 19:36

Thanks, however, since Pat has stated it takes me 2.5 seconds just to make 4 lousey gear changes........ how long do you think it's going to take me work out "how" to do it, let alone "actually" do it......

That's why I have brainy intelligent friends like you, and Pat http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif


23rd March 2003, 20:07
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the unlikelyhood that many, if any, of the "current" engines out there, are producing a similar level of torque at circa 4800rpm, that my engine did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition either...

I think a couple of cars at least will be a right laugh, and will put that statement to the test.


23rd March 2003, 22:43
Currently missing/(or I might have lost http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif )

Bob Rawle

It would be nice to have Michaels Legacy specs as well http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

23rd March 2003, 23:03
Adam : You are the rumour mill. You posted that Mark did 180mph and I put the record straight. You then removed at least one post and went on to contradict me. BTW I am only one of a number of people who realized the pertinent post(s) was/were removed.

A sneaky move on your part and your integrity should be beyond reproach as a moderator.

Anders : Thanks for the reminder. I will get back to you soon.

Adam M
24th March 2003, 01:01
How dare you question my integrity!

You do not know me and clearly have no idea what you are talking about with regard to my deletion.

The deleted post of mine was before you even joined this thread. I have already stated that. It was not deleted for reasons of changing what I wrote with regard to marks top speed as it was before that was ever brought up in the thread.

If you want to check when it was then compare it with the time moray put up a test post in the anything else forum as the bbs was not updating, which is why I posted twice and then deleted once incidentally.

Oh but look, you cant check when morays test post was because it was also deleted. Perhaps this was to help cover up the conspiracy that is going on to make you look foolish. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Do you really think I dont have better things to do with my time than trying to show you up on the bbs? regarding a fly away comment on marks top speed.

Forgive me, he made 176ish mph not 170, somebody please shoot me.

I am normally very difficult to annoy, and many people who actually know me will confimr that I am an easy going person, but I do not take kindly to having my integrity criticised, especially on a public forum.

I suggest you retract your comments and get your facts straight before insulting my character. Perhaps these other people can confirm what I so maticulously covered up.

Frankly you are just not important enough for me to consider deleting a post over.

I make mistakes like all others. I particulalry enjoyed arguing with andy f on scoobynet, and in the process learning something from him. I have no problem in admitting I was totally wrong, and was pleased to have been put right. I had no reasons to go back and delete any posts and I was embarassingly wrong then!

Your issue is over a flyaway comment about mark not actually making 180mph, a flyaway comment, not a claim laying down a milestone for everyone to beat.

Perhaps you would like me to go back and state that it was actually 175.9mph or whatever, I have the power to edit my own posts, that way I wont be spreading viscous lies and corrupting the community with untruths.

Forgive me if I dont go back and do that, but then I have a life outside subarus, and if people make comments and round up because they arent entirely sure of exact figures, I have better things to do than scream conspiracy.

I dont give a damn about whatever issues you have with top speeds, but if you question my integrity publically again then you will be hearing from my lawyers.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 24 March 2003).]

24th March 2003, 01:03
LOL I have been following this thread with interest and I have watched as the testosterone levels have escalated in here http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif.Come on guys chill out a bit let your cars do the talking on the day rather than having a virtual slagging match on here.Whats it going to be when you all finally meet up fisticuffs???

Anyway whats the final date for this thing and can I come and watch the event?


Edit to add I know/have met Adam and can say he is a decent bloke(cash/paypal or cheques will do Adam http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by sjl (edited 24 March 2003).]

Adam M
24th March 2003, 01:04
oh and by the way I replied twice to your iabove condemnation of my integrity, but the first one for whatever reason didnt upload, or so I thought.

After posting the second one I saw the other had uploaded and chose the latter as the more suitable answer. I therefore deleted my first answer.

24th March 2003, 01:10
Adam, Chill out..

SJ Whatever... boys and there toys.. there all scared of my car...


Anyway bed time for me...


PS Behave.. we all have a life outside of cars ????


Adam M
24th March 2003, 01:16

Fisticuffs isnt my style, anyone wants to hit me they are welcome to go for it, I wouldnt defend myself, but one sided assault charges tend to be open and shut cases! I have no doubt you can do a lot more damage by hitting someone in the wallet.

There is nothing wrong with arguing technical issues, but this is not a technical issue, this was a cry of conspiracy and deception.

Technical stuff is fun this has not been fun for me at all.

You are right though, it is not worth getting so upset about such things, so I am going to forget about it.

I am a little angry at myself for allowing people I have never met to upset me, but there are few things I take pride in, and harvey has insulted one of the things which is core to my personality. I am just glad he didnt insult my mother.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 24 March 2003).]

24th March 2003, 01:16
Excellent news http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

Harvey is in in his own rite 200+ member and Michael with his Legacy http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

This will free up a couple of places http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

24th March 2003, 01:31
OOps read the above, sorry you are all getting hot and bothered http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Feel free to delete the hot and bothered stuff as this isn't Scoobynet you know and not really what we are all into http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

The cars will do the talking and then we can all have fun and congratulate the bold/crazy types that build monster engines and are prepared to drive them http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

24th March 2003, 09:25
Adam:I stand by exactly whatI have said and am unable to follow your logic.

Adam said "I have not deleted any "recent" posts of mine or anyone elses"
"There was.......as a result I deleted a post of mine but I think that was on page 4 and before you posted"

Obviously you would have to post before me for me to read it and then after I made my comment and without specifically naming you, you then deleted the relevant post. Several others observed this too.

"If you want to check.....to make you look foolish"
What is the point of this drivel? Does it have any?

No retraction. Read what has been said objectively.

Thankyou for clarifying that it was a "flyaway comment" If you are prone to fly away comments then the content of your posts can be treated accordingly. I note that you do contradict yourself from time to time. Forgive me, but as you probably, currently post on 22b more than anyone else then it is obviously a large part of your life and takes up a lot of your time.

Your lawyers are at liberty to contact me anytime. H.R. Smith, Earlsville, Carmel Road North, Darlington. DL3 9TF.

P.S. What has your mother got to do with anything?

OK Anders, you have made the decision for me and it opens up a place for another 22b member. I will run with the 200+ Club in August. I expect to get into the 170's with a 1/4ml around 12.3 but the car gearing is not ideal for that. I now have a closed deck block to start the next engine but after lots of agonising consideration I think I will stay with 2 litres (2016cc)
Obviously the Elvington results on the day(and not data logs) will be very interesting and hopefully one of the Subaru community can breach 180mph but I think that is a tall order. With 500/500 and John Falstead at the wheel it could even be Adam's car.

24th March 2003, 09:54
Is 10 of the best doing something about insurance for the day? or does anyone know any companies that will cover the car?

Only reason that I ask, is that I am doing the sprints this Saturday in Jersey, and just found out it seems my insurance company doesn't seem to want to play ball... so looking for another company to insure me for the day.

24th March 2003, 09:56
Guys can we get back to mad cars and not being mad at each other please! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Harvey I am grateful that you have had the foresight to join 200+ club as that means we can have an extra contender http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

24th March 2003, 10:13
Christian: Egger Lawson, Competition Car Insurance,72 Maid Marian Way, Nottingham,NG1 6BJ. Sorry I do not have the e-mail or phone number.

Adam M
24th March 2003, 10:23

you seem to have trouble reading.

I am going to say this one more time,

the deleted post was NOTHING to do with top speed, it was editorial - a repeated post with the same content both times nothing more and was LONG before the subject of marks car doing 180mph came up. If you are so convinced you recall it so well, please tell me what it said as I must have some severe short term memory loss to forget doing something like what you suggest.

Answer me something, when have I ever not held my hand out up to admit when I have been wrong?

with this in mind and with the crap you have stirred up why should I start deleting stuff now?

since I am clearly in the habit of doing this, why havent I gone back and deleted every post which might irritate you?

The lawyers comment was me flying off the handle, I shouldn't have written but rarely has someone irritated me so much.

I dont like being accused of dishonesty, but I will put it down to you feeling threatened because it would appear that someone has achieved 180/176mph and you havent. does anyone really care?

Perish the thought that your car isnt the fastest impreza.

I am not going to argue about this anymore, as with your comment outstanding the respect I had for you is gone.

I have given you a chance to retract yet you are now maintaining that I am a liar.

Good luck at 10 of the best, I hope you and your car will wow the crowds and it will bring some happiness to your life.

24th March 2003, 11:03
Back to the subject..

Ive just noticed anders ammended first post...

Practice Day http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

24th March 2003, 12:07
There is in theory a practice day this Sunday, just excludes the handling circuit.

Think i am going, got to try it sometime http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

24th March 2003, 13:41
Thanks harvey, I did a search for the address, and came up with this website: http://www.competition-car-insurance.co.uk/ so I am in the process of contacting them.

24th March 2003, 22:31
Adam : It is interesting that you choose to insult me rather than deal with the salient points.

This started when I corrected an inaccuracy and twice I posted without making this personal.

You make more posts than anybody else at present and a lot of it is just drivel with no relevance. Regularly you get it wrong and are corrected by others or have to correct yourself. Does it not occur to you that many of us are tired of hearing about your diverse postulations which include a 500/500 engine which will be mapped to 396bhp, which has been in the process of build since a year last February approximately and may not be ready for Elvington in August this year.

Specifically referring to your assertions about my concerns regards the top speeds of my car, I will be very happy if I can achieve 170mph in what is an everyday road car and while I think that 180mph is a tall order I hope one of us can achieve that on 3rd August because that will have brought the development of Subarus on by leaps and bounds since last year. I know David Wallis and Paul Blamire are both building larger capacity engines, and it would be good if their hard efforts and contributions to this board were rewarded by good results and I would be quite happy to see their top speeds greatly surpass mine.

BTW a difference of just 5mph at these elevated speeds is a very major difference and not easily achieved.

Adam M
24th March 2003, 23:01

There is no requirement that content on this or any bbs need be quality nor accurate.
I am 25 years old and have a bold sense of humour and an outgoing personality. I havent learned to be cynical and critical of others yet, I guess I have that to look forward to. From your posts all I can do is assume you are far older than I am with a contrasting personality, this is not an insult just an observation and possibly may explain why you object to me and my posts.

Personally I enjoy having a laugh with my friends, whether they are laughing at me or with me, its a form of socialising which is easier on here as there is a higher concentration of my friends. I dont see a problem with that, if you do feel free not to post here again. I for one will not miss you or your attitude.

The comment about your issue with people going faster than you wasnt meant as an insult, I find it odd that someone is so utterly convinced of an attempt to distort the truth that they shout deception, clearly it has hit a raw nerve.

I dont know why, because with the power you are putting out and your adjusted final drive, I should think you would have no difficulty reaching the figures mentioned here.

Its actually rather amusing that something so insignificant compelled you to post and insult my integrity in the process. In normal situations I would apologise for offending you, but after you have handed me possibly the most offensive insult you could possibly muster up, I dont feel inclined to be considerate to you in any way shape or form.

I dont enjoy falling out with people, in fact it very rarely happens, but then never before have I had my word questioned and a genuine (and truthful) explanation utterly dismissed only to be followed by further insults.

I thought I made it clear that I have no wish to converse with you, on this or any subject and would like to call this matter closed so that this thread can return to its original course.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 24 March 2003).]

24th March 2003, 23:20
Well, I'm looking forward to TOTB anyway.

I'll be taking a trip to the Pod sometime before, we'll see what the timeslip has to say.


Lateral Performance Ltd
25th March 2003, 01:13

On a lighter note, I would expect you to be hitting 170mph easily in your car.

Tim managed an official 166mph at Elvington, running a max of 1.25bar, on an MD304. I believe you're running well in excess of 100bhp more than him, and this should easily give you 170mph ++

IMO, it's only a matter of time, before someone will break 180mph, we've certainly got the power to achieve it these days.

Last year, the Top Ten day was really good fun, with everyone helping each other to achieve the best results they could.

It would be nice to see the same atmosphere this year !!!!


25th March 2003, 07:50
Adam:Why not stick with the facts instead of ramblings,(eg. lawyers,flying off the handle,fly away comments, your mother, etc.)
How is the innocent reader to know which bits are flyaway comments. What about those who may be new to this board who have yet to realise that what you say is often inaccurate.
You said :"There is no requirement that content on this board or any other bbs needs to be quality or accurate."
I do not need to say anymore at this point.

Adam M
25th March 2003, 08:27
are you trying to antagonise me? I said it was finished.

in that case harvey where do we draw the line on accuracy?

how would you like it if I sesnsored your posts, because I thought your 417 and 424bhp was not of sufficient accuracy. We all know rolling roads vary enormously yet you seem to think 417 is now a proven fact. If you are going to be so pedantic about accuracy, I demand a certificate of accuracy before I will allow these innaccuracies you post to remain.

There are shades of grey in everything harvey, very few things are simply right or wrong, they are open to interpretation.

Can you vehemently prove mark's car was not doing 180mph? the answer is no, so why is my original comment so misleading and inaccurate.

The data logs, gearing and tire circumference indicate 176 or so, tire expansion could very easily make that an actual speed of 180.

I said I didnt want to talk anymore about this but you seem to enjoy attempting to discredit me.

keep it up, I am actually beginning to enjoy this now.

Those drivel comments you complain about is the way I express myself and not open to criticism, once again there is no style requirement on here. If you dont like it, dont read it, what more can I say.

Perhaps you would prefer bullet points of facts, in which case I think you should frequent http://www.encyclopedia.com.

It seems to me you are throwing toys out of the pram and objecting to everything you can about me. I dont care about that. You accused me of deleting some post which I did not, when I denied it, again you called me a liar and you expect me not to respond, not to be offended, and not to reply in the emotional way I always do?

Do you expect me to sit back and allow you insult my integrity without complaining (rambling on) about it. I have the power to amend what you wrote am entitled to since it is a libellous statement but I have not. By you leaving it there you simply show me how unwilling you are to listen to an explanation. I was always taught that it takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, clearly you are not a big man.

I shot my mouth of regarding lawyers etc, which I admitted I shouldnt have done, I was angry at your audacity.

I would rather come across as a lively enthusiastic child who talks too much (which is what I am) than have the on line personality that you are displaying right now.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 25 March 2003).]

25th March 2003, 08:41
Just stick to the facts.
You already admitted you deleted a post.
Where did I say you were a liar?

25th March 2003, 08:43
FFS Adam, stick to your promise ignore Harvey's posts.

Harvey, FFS man chill out, do not turn this into a war of words, please.

Can we all get this back on thread!

Steven http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/mad.gif

Adam M
25th March 2003, 08:52
am having trouble, cant keep mouth shut.

harvey, yes I deleted a post, but the post I deleted is still there!

You accused me of deleting a post, if I vehemently denied this, I would have been lying as I did delete a post because it went up twice.

For honesty and accuracy I have admitted to this but you seem to not understand that both posts had the same information in them.

Please tell me what was the content of this post that was so riske that I was forced to delete it? because if you are talking about the one where I first said marks car was the one doing 180mph, it is still there and was posted on march 19th (page 5 fyi).

25th March 2003, 09:43
What we need round here is someone to monitor posts and moderate them as neccessary, I don't know, maybe we could call them Moderators....

Anyone for tea?