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iwatkins
4th April 2000, 10:31
Following Anders confusion http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif here is an update on this event. Anders has organised the 5 cars representing the Scooby gang so talk to him about it.

As an update:

EVO List have already got their five cars/owners lined up. They also expect quite a few other EVO's to join them to cheer their lot on.

GTi-R List are formulating their battle plan and expect to get their 5 cars organised soon. They are also bringing most of their 'club' with them.

GT4 list as usual will leave it to the last minute (because I'm supposed to be sorting it). However, we expect a hybrid turbo, rebuilt, MoTec'ed ST205 GT4 (~330bhp) to be ready and available. We also have a guy planning on coming back from Finland (!!) with his ST185 GT4 (again, hybrid, MoTeC etc.). And a few other GT4's. Most of the GT4 UK owners will also be coming along to cheer on our lot and hurl abuse at the GTi-R lot http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Banzai magazine have first dibs on the event and hope to confirm soon.

Rich (at Powerstation) as arranged the use of the secure car park directly opposite Powerstation for the day so owners can leave their cars safely there (also covered by CCTV). The wives of Rich and Dirk (Sue and Debs) are also going to run a BBQ on the day for all the hordes (this will not be free though http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif).

Although I have only asked for five cars from each of the four makes, there should be time after the 'shoot-out' to run another 10 or so cars. This will be on a "if it looks (visual and/or modification wise) different we will run it" kind of basis. Many owners I know will be bringing friends with other exotica such as Supras, Skylines etc.

All in all should be a good day. But the emphasis is on having fun and meeting the other owners groups (and stealing their ideas), rather than the numbers that come out of the runs.

Cheers

Ian

Danny Fisher
4th April 2000, 18:15
Ian, would it be possible to post a list of who is representing the Scoob's

Dan

Anders
4th April 2000, 20:31
Usual suspects, not all confirmed.
1.Me http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
2.Firefox.
3.Bob Iles.
4.Pete Croney.
5.Stephan Reader.
6.Bob Rawle.
7.Mark Aigin.

We will decide amongst ourselves who will actual be "one of the 5"

Also I need a standard UK car and a standard STi http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

iwatkins
14th April 2000, 17:50
Just an update:

Banzai mag. has just confirmed that they will be covering the event.

Cheers

Ian

iwatkins
19th April 2000, 18:54
Further Update:

The VFM Shoot-out will take place at Powerstation in Cheltenham (http://www.powerstation.org.uk/)

The event will begin at 10am.

Each of the four car makes invited (Scooby, EVO, GTi-R and GT4) have a nominated organiser. They have decided which five cars from their group will take part.

All other owners are welcome to come along to spectate and mix, mingle and steal ideas from other owners.

Banzai Magazine will cover the event.

All entrants are required to pay 15 ukpounds. All entrants are requested to arrive on time and park in the Powerstation yard.

All spectators are asked to park in the secure car park opposite Powerstation.

If there are any questions, please in the first instance ask your groups organiser (Anders) or failing that to me at: iwatkins@netcomuk.co.uk

Cheers

Ian Watkins

P.S. There will be a BBQ on a 'Pay for what you eat' basis.

Anders
28th April 2000, 17:11
OK I need some Subaru voluanteers!

Top end tuned cars are looking a little shakey at the moment! Mine is going back to have its diesel nature looked at! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Branners
28th April 2000, 21:02
If you fancy sneaking one of our more powerful Supras onto the rollers I might be able to pursuade the guy to come along.

There will probably be a few Supra spectators anyway.

Shaun
29th April 2000, 03:02
Anders,

I have a modified MY94 WRX that is pumping circa 290 bhp, and Harj has a MY96 WRX, tuned to the nuts pumping out well over 300 bhp!

Interested?

Shaun.

P.S. These are proper Powerstation figures as well!!!!


[This message has been edited by Shaun (edited 29 April 2000).]

Anders
29th April 2000, 13:02
Sure send me your specifications, I will have to work out who is doing what catagory of car http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

iwatkins
29th April 2000, 17:06
Branners: Even I can can spot a Supra on the rollers http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif. There will be none of that (but maybe time to run a few Supras after the 20 cars).

All: Right the EVO, GTi-R and the GT4 lot have their five cars sorted (plus reserves). Only you Scooby lot now.

Cheers

Ian

Anders
5th May 2000, 13:54
We have:
1) Sideways Stephy
2) Shaun
3) Bob Iles
4) Ranoch
5) Mark Aigin

My car is still in the garage, I will attend in the Micra if necessary http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

iwatkins
8th May 2000, 10:22
Sad news: The BBQ that was planned is now off. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Cheers

Ian

Anders
8th May 2000, 20:59
Good news I will be attending in Richard's 22B http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Paul Olson
8th May 2000, 22:23
Are you still looking for a standard UK? I have a MY00, but only have 1800 Super unleaded miles under my belt. May not be run in enough for your purposes?

Anders
8th May 2000, 22:32
The famous five are as above, come along for the social side and you might be able to sneak on the rollers at the end! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Ian Cook
8th May 2000, 23:29
Surely thats infamous five Anders http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif LOL

Paul Strong
10th May 2000, 18:30
I'm pretty sure when this was first announced that I said I'd come along to get graphs and figures for the Scoobies for the dyno site.

Unfortunately I'm busy this weekend, but if someone could collect a copy of the printouts of the Scoobies and maybe one of the best of each of the other makes of cars for comparison purposes then I'll put them on the web.

If most of the same Scoobies are going to be at Powerstation on the 27th for the big dyno day then this probably isn't worth bothering with. I will be there on the 27th.

iwatkins
10th May 2000, 18:57
Paul,

I'll be collecting graphs for all cars that run on Saturday. I can scan them all for you if you like ?

Cheers

Ian

Paul Olson
11th May 2000, 13:57
Anybody travelling from London on Saturday and fancies a bit of a convoy? (Anders?)

Paul Strong
11th May 2000, 17:02
Thanks Ian, that would be great. I don't really want to put a pile of non Scooby runs on the dyno site, but a few high power ones would be great for people to compare.

If there are any Scooby runs done after the main 'shoot out' could you or someone gather names and email addresses otherwise I can't get details of the mods!

Cheers.

iwatkins
11th May 2000, 21:02
Paul,

I'll scan/email you a copy of all the Scoobies that run including mods/names etc. details and say a graph of the top running 'other' cars.

It will be a few days after the event as I don't get my scanner back from my sister until Tuesday (if I'm lucky http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif)

Cheers

Ian

[This message has been edited by iwatkins (edited 11 May 2000).]

Anders
12th May 2000, 15:04
I will be leaving Richmond at 8-30am and going up the M40 any ideas about a rendezvous point?

Shaun
12th May 2000, 16:44
Anders,

Large and Me will be going down the A46 (@ M40 junc.) There is a large layby on A46 (just off motorway roundabout, going towards Stratford/Alcester). What time do you wanna meet?

Shaun.

Anders
12th May 2000, 18:00
What time do we need to get to the layby ?

Shaun
12th May 2000, 19:45
Anders,

No later then 9.00 am!

It is the layby on the left hand side, opposite the fruit farm. 1/4 mile ish from motorway exit roundabout.

Get off the M40 at the warwick/coventry A46 turn off, and follow the signs to Stratford.

C-ya later!

Shaun.

Anders
12th May 2000, 22:10
I am meeting Mark Aigin at South Mims service petrol station at 8-8.15am.

I am not coming up from Richmond after all

Anders
14th May 2000, 11:41
Well we had:

3 22Bs

Stef with and without a suerchip
Bob Iles with a PE 1
David Taylor (Ranoch) with a link
Mark Aigin with a link plus water injection
The Harj and Shaun road show superchip and water injection.
Moray with his Motec.

We await Mr Watkins analysis http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

My car was running with a standard 22B chip from Theodores car and produced smilar figures to standard 30,000 miles earlier.
However the power comes in very early and then tails off at the top end.

I am looking forward to the link map as the car was producing 1 bar, and the engine is apparently good for 1.8 bar! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

However I don't think Bob would be happy going so high!

Harj
14th May 2000, 14:50
Was a good day all round! Good to finally meet some of you guys!

Anders! Shaun and I are running UNICHIPS not Supershits! Shame about the STI5 with 248BHP Possum http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Look forward to the 27th!

Harj....

Jonathan
14th May 2000, 15:32
There seems to be a lack of figures posted on here. Who's car got wot. Or is this info only for the attendees. And what about the EVO's ?

Jonathan

iwatkins
14th May 2000, 15:43
All,

I have yet to complete my analysis (just got in from a big night out http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif)

Hope to get something done by tomorrow evening (Monday).

However, I think everybody who came enjoyed themselves and the weather was good (or bad depending which way you look at it).

Long day for me, didn't leave PS until after 7pm. Also didn't have time to run the slot 3 and 5 GT4's (our no. 4 wasn't ready). So in the analysis, I will add GT4's no 3, 4 and 5 off previous runs (all recorded) with the modifications at that time. These runs were done in similar conditions (actually hotter) so should be quite fair.

All in all, a top day out and good to meet the other groups. The main reason for the event, to get the groups mixing worked well.

Only downside, Banzai didn't turn up to cover the event even though I had two telephone confirmations and one in person confirmation that they were coming. Needless to say, they will be getting the word on Monday. I was told they also didn't turn up for a GTi-R day recently also. Fair to say they cannot be trusted to turn up, but hey, their loss.

Interesting fact: Someone calculated that at one point there was well over half a million pounds worth of motors parked in the PS or opposite car park. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Thanks to everyone who made the effort to attend.

Cheers

Ian

Bob
14th May 2000, 20:46
Jonathon/
Hi long time no see.
My car gave 243BHP & 247 lbs/ft torque. Thatís about 40bhp and 30 odds lbs/ft of torque down on PEís figures. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif So I only had 35 bhp over STD.
Quite a few of the EVOís where only getting 260ish bhp they were not amused. And all went home early. As Harj says we did have Sti with 248 but that could be a problem with his link. Mark did keep the BHP up with a 298ish BHP. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif A certain 22B gave 285 BHP. That a good 5 bhp over STD. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gifAnd he did have a PE sticker on his air meter thatís what gave him that extra power. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif
It all looks like all our mods give us very little. Our top Sti only gave an extra 18 bhp.
Obviously with the UK models starting lower in the BHP division improvements seem to be easier.
After all said and done I was quite happy with this even if I was 40 BHP down on PEís RR my comparison to the Stiís is getting closer.
Regards
Shit stirring Bob. http://www.apc.net/judygal/licky4.gif

Jonathan
14th May 2000, 21:20
Bob

Bad day for the boys then http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Funny how its been so quiet.

Was that Rannoch's car the STI V with Link ?. Cant think it can be. I thought it was flying, or was it a case of a Fast Car shootout. My cars got xxx and then they do an impression of an R5GT.

Did the EVO's win the day then ?

Lucky I didnt bring the P1 along to show them up http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Jonathan

Bob
14th May 2000, 21:35
I think a GTR takes the day with 303 bhp and 335 ish torque for about a few seconds that's Nitro's for you.
Moray takes the day for the longest flame about 4 ft but the bang frightened a poor toddler out of his skin. Didn't do my ticker much good either http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
Bob

Anders
15th May 2000, 00:18
Best bit of the day was learning from Bob about the perils of Scrumpy! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif

Also Stefs unichip and bleed valve brought his power figures back to his previously impressive figures with his free flow exhaust alone. I bet he was pleased to be able to perform back to back testing http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shaun
15th May 2000, 08:36
Dear donkeys.......

Good day had by all, except for the ECU master mapper - slagging everthing off (mentioning no names....but Mark springs to mind!!!!!!)

Anders, you are now barred from PS. Why? 'cause you have said Stef had a UNICHIP. How DARE you!!!!! Especially after what happened yesterday (wink, wink) It was a SUPERSHIT!!!!!!!!!

Oh well, mines going back in on Friday for a re-map, ready for the spod and of course the main event on 27th May.............

Scatman.

Mark.A
15th May 2000, 12:28
Shaun,

If by suggesting that putting cars on the rollers willy nilly, and having to change the rollers every run was unlikely to give constistant results, even within a make of car, was "slagging" everyone off, fine. The cars should have been run one make at a time.

Yes, I know PS have a white line marked for the Scoobies, but this was used as a guide, and I know for a fact how just 1cm can vary figures by 20bhp/ftlbs.

The Scoobies seemed to suffer the most with low figures. Personally I think this was down to the fan system. Air flow through the IC is critical. This was proved at PE, where just varying the angle of the fan to the IC by a few degrees, made a difference of 20bhp +/-. A fan mounted some 1/1.5ft above an open bonnet, that wasn't even strong enough to deflect the water spray they used, was, in my oppinion, not up to the job.

The results on the rollers were at best strange. 250bhp out of a Possumed STi5, is a farce. Let alone Hodges car, that can hit 140mph down the back straight at Donnington, you try it in yours !!!!!!. I mapped both his, and my car, and you're trying to tell me that 50bhp difference between the cars is logical. As is 284ftlbs from 25psi overboost I guess http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif.

As for your comment about me being a "master mapper", given that my car gave by far the best Scooby figures on the day, I'll take that as a compliment. Especially as I'm a complete novice, with no rolling road to use, and it's the first car I've ever mapped.

I did enjoy the day, it was interesting, and good to meet other owners who mostly had one thing in commom........thinking just how low all the figures were on the day http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif.


Mark. Waiting for some serious flack http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Stef
15th May 2000, 13:34
My car managed 227bhp but only 214lb/ft???
Superchip increased these to 245/232 so I was quite pleased considering the conditions.
Car is now in for a heart transplant though. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif
I won't be jumping to any conclusions so don't ask, when I know you will.

Stef.

Beef
15th May 2000, 14:47
Have to say I enjoyed the day immensely.

It's kind of ironic that I had the highest displacement, but probably the lowest power with 155rwhp @4300rpm (225 at fly - run aborted early http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif). Ah well, at least my print-out reckons I'm getting 311lb/ft @1300 (gotta be a mistake http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)...

As for that Sunny, I have to say that I wasn't particularly impressed with it: It may have achieved 300 at the crank, but it was only getting 175 down to the wheels, and that is where it counts! A loss of 125 through the transmission is shocking in my opinion.

Other than that, great day, nice to meet some of you, I just wish it hadn't been so far away.

Keith (with the great white whale)

NeilR
15th May 2000, 16:22
Hmmmm, reminds me of the time when PE could only get a reading of 280Bhp from my car. The thing is, my car ran straight after an Evo 4 and they hadn't reset the rollers. Once reset .... + 45Bhp!

These figures appear very low and IMHO, aren't quite right.

So..... what did Morays car get...?

NeilR
www.mysubaru.demon.co.uk (http://www.mysubaru.demon.co.uk)

D4VID
15th May 2000, 18:30
Yep, It was a good day

Shame it was so hot! . I think everyone was down on power
Calebs car, (black GTIR with different bumper) made 341 BHP the day B4 on a different rolling road, and as for the GTIR with the NOS, it was at 1 BAR and totally stock engine with the standard air-filter, Donít know how long that engines going to stay in one lump !!.

We should do the same thing next year but at PE.

Or have some runs at Santa Pod,

Dave (GTIR)

sunilp
15th May 2000, 18:42
Shit stirring Bob,

I am confused - maybe i am missing something, but you worry about only having xxx above standard but surely you need to run your car as standard on the same rr to gauge what improvements over "standard" you actually have.

Shaun,

What mags are turning up for the 27th then?

Stef,

After all the debating and shit stirring you participated in you have gone and got yourself a SUPERSHIT?....are you sane?

Bob
15th May 2000, 18:44
Just to let you know the inlet temps my gauge read 46 deg after the run. I get 68 deg at PE so the fan on the I/C must do something.
Cannot understand IT I'm quite happy with my figs. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
Bob

Bob
15th May 2000, 18:58
Sunlip/
I am not worried about the figs I am down on PE figs, but still up on the figs the manufactures gives. Most cars there never even reached there manufacturers std figs even with lots of extras.
When filling out the form we have to put down what bhp & torque the car gives as STD
I could not change all my extras and put the car on a RR so had to go by the figs the makers say the car has 208 BHP & 214 Torque
Hope I done right.
Bob

Shaun
15th May 2000, 19:14
Mark,

It's all about manners! You don't go to somebody else's house and P1SS on there floor, do ya!

FACTS!

All scoobies (apart from Stef's first run), were run after each other, using the same air temp's and same roller wheelbase! So claiming they were run willy nilly is crap! Case for the other cars, granted.

White line was adhered to for all scoobies, hence the point about the change in roller wheelbase is totally pointless for this argument!

Point as regards to the fan is a valid, but unless you have a fan with 120mph throughput, there is no point!

The 245 bhp is a clear true indication, that, that car had a problem. Remember all cars ran with same conditions!!!!!

Yes figures were down. But with ambient temps @ 23degs and barometric pressure through the roof, what do you expect. (for your info, Dirk - the tall skinny git - mentioned to me before the 1st car went on, that Saturday had some of the WORST conditions, on which to run TURBO cars!!!!!!!

Comparison of cars was bang on - considering the conditions. If anyone really thinks a standard EVO can do 330 bhp, there on drugs. Why else do ralliart do a conversion pack TO 330bhp then!!!!!!!!!!

Stef's car ran as REALLY expected, especially with the 2nd run with the SUPERSHIT! 245bhp with just under 1bar of boost sounds cock on to me.......but what do I know.

My car ran as expected......285 was made on a previous run at 13degs, so expected to lose about 10 bhp! As I remember telling you, the reason why it made only 265 bhp was because of the fueling. I have had major problems with my exhaust, and last week I had a mod done to the downpipe. Since then it was never checked on the rollers!!!!! It just so happens that had caused the car to run at 6%CO (now, you being a master mapper will appreciate that is way too lean, as CO should be around 7.5%!!!!), thus not enabling the car to run with the correct power at the top end!!!! Hence the LOW figure. Funny Mark how my Torque figure was as it normally is, ie low down were the fueling is correct!!!!!! But hey, that must of been just a lucky run!

Just cause i know them well, doesnt mean I will come out with crap for the sake of. If I think they talk bolloxs, i'll tell 'em. Anybody that knows me, will know I don't suffer fools gladly! I speak what I think! If it offends people - TUFF!

I only appreciate (and might agree!) to comments if they are valid. With yours I don't.

Shaun.

Shaun.

iwatkins
15th May 2000, 22:01
All,

Please, less of the "these figures are crap because...." stuff. Everybody had to suffer the (almost) same conditions. The mix and match of cars at the begining of the day was MY idea and was against the wishes of the PS staff. And it seems everybody else. I thought it would make the day more interesting. Sorry. This situation was soon recified.

I spent sometime today checking all the graphs against mods. etc. I have now collated the figures into a spreadsheet ready to bang out the final values for VFM.

Because Banzai failed to turn up (they will be getting an ear full tomorrow), Anders has kindly suggested that a write-up be produced to host on www.22b.com (http://www.22b.com) once the site is up (about a week ?). Because Banzai didn't turn up, I have no photographic record of the day. If anybody has any photos they would like to submit, please send them directly to me at: iwatkins@netcomuk.co.uk

As Shaun has pointed out, conditions (as we all knew) on the day were not good for rolling roading turbo cars. Air temps for the day ranged between 21 (at 10am) to 26 around midday and then quickly back down again to around 23 degrees. The 26 was recorded for a couple of the GTi-R runs around lunchtime. Air pressure was dropping through the day from 1016 in the morning down to 1007 by the end of the day. I.e. not very good but improving in the afternoon.

I'm really sorry all, but I just haven't really had the time to the results today (I do have a day job). But I do have a quick idea on the results, some are obvious and some are less so. And at the moment, it does look as though the overall winner might turn out to be a Scooby owner, as much as it pains me to say so http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif Honestly, more info. to follow soon.

With regards to a certain Sti on Possum that ran below 250, the owner did point out that this was bad run due to some wrong settings in the Possum. I did try to fit him in for another run later on (after some adjustments), but we ran out of time and the Scooby lot ran away http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif Another time..

But overall, all the runs seemed to be OK, except for the first 22B which had duff figures due to the failure to lock the diffs. I'm sure there will be another chance to run this car in the future...

Cheers

Ian


[This message has been edited by iwatkins (edited 15 May 2000).]

Anders
15th May 2000, 23:17
I was asked what to set the dif to?
I was not prepared to lock Richard's dif without getting advice!

Bob was in Spain but I managed to get through to Peter Croney who had been enjoying a Rotterdammn Coffee shop "Rotterdammn is beautiful"! right http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Having been advised to lock the dif I was able to apply this to Charles 22B and mine. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/cool.gif

iwatkins
15th May 2000, 23:34
Anders,

That's right. Nobody seemd to know whether it was OK to lock the diffs for a high speed run (but in a straight line).

Richards can be run again of course, in the future...

Cheers

Ian

Mark.A
16th May 2000, 00:42
Shaun,

It's a shame you couldn't say this to my face when we spoke about this on Sat'. As for "manners", or "pis*ing" on the floor as you put it, I was not a guest of PS, I was one of several that hired their facilities.

I agree about the temp', although barametric pressure has been around 1017mb for some weeks now. I commented on the effects of the temps to Richie B, and was assured that the roller compensated for this. As should it compensate for pressure. Which by the way makes only a minor (10bhp 'ish) difference at even a 20mb change.

White line, you're right, all but a couple of Scoobys were run on the same roller positions. Hodges was not, it was run later in the day. You are also correct in saying it is comparative, but this doesn't mean it's correct.

Hmmm, CO's, well maybe someone should tell you what CO gives max power, and that 7.5%co is a compromise between safety, and power. As for your map, and mods, I make no comment, as I have no knowledge of your car. However, you have had to modify your down pipe, not because of it's design, but because you can't remap the boost profile with the Unichip. You can only turn the boost up or down with your bleed valve (unless you had an EVC) and of course you don't want to do that, do you.

I'm not an expert, nor do I perport to be, but I do know that 284ftlbs from 1.65bar is not correct, and that Hodges car is not doing 250bhp running 1.35bar through a VF22 turbo. Davids (Rannocks) STi5 may be running rich, but a stock STi will often run in excess of 10%co, and still do better than 245bhp !!!!!!!!!!.

I'm not offended by your comments, or views. You are more than entitled to speak your mind, as am I. I believe that the PS RR does not give accurate results on the Scoobys. IMO the fan system is inadequate, and the "load" put on the rollers is incorrect to give accurate figures. You are entitled to think otherwise.

I didn't want to get into a slanging match, and even refrained from posting my oppinions, until you decided to single me out. If you had any understanding of mapping a Scooby, boost V torque, fuel, and ignition maps, you would understand where I'm coming from, as would anyone else who thinks I'm talking "bollox".

Mark.




[This message has been edited by Mark.A (edited 16 May 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mark.A (edited 16 May 2000).]

shaunee
16th May 2000, 10:17
Mark,

If you would like to discuss this FACE to FACE, then please come to PS on the 27th for the RR shootout!!!!!!!!!!! Some of us have a certain amount of manners, but if that's the way you wanna play it..............

DON'T WORRY PEOPLE, I AM NOT GONNA CONTINUE WHAT HAPPENED ON SCOOBYNET!!!! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Your quite right - you don't know anything about my car set-up! But, considering it makes .8bar of boost with NO boost control connected and the wastegate jacked fully OPEN 90 degs....... So, the only cause left is either the TURBO or EXHAUST SYSTEM, NOT the chip or electronic boost controlling! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

At the end of the day ALL scoobies were tested under the same conditions - PERIOD!!! So there fore all results were relative!

I have never said that PS figures were absolutley correct - just more accurate then most!

Like I explained to you on Sat., if you want MEGA ACCURATE figures, use an engine dyno!

But hey what do I know......I'm just a thick DOORMAN!!!!!!!!

Shaun.

Harj
16th May 2000, 15:18
We await the 27th confrontation between 2 giants, well horizontal and vertical! Mark A has his chance to prove his technical abilities and virtues in front of a large croud http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shaun will you be wearing the Doormans outfit? all in black with a bow ties! Really though people! my honest opinion is that I have been to many RR's all over the country and PS figures seem to be the most realistic ones I have found to date!

This is why they are my preferred tuner and servicer! as they seem to have a lot more technical knowledge and ability of Scoobies that most others I know! And they are great guys to know.

I would not hesitate to recomend them to anyone as the UNICHIP is by far more superior than any other upgrade I have come across for the money.
Mark, the STI with 248BHP, there is something wrong with the car not the rollers, we had all seen how rich it was running http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

More to come!

Harj http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shaun
16th May 2000, 16:04
Scoobynet "THE HARJ & SHAUN ROADSHOW" - Re-visted?

NOT A CHANCE http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shaun.

Harj - Don't wind me up http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

iainlit
16th May 2000, 18:19
Mark,

Good to see you again but I am afraid I have to disagree with your view.

I have taken numerous cars to PS including many Scoobs. A 1993 WRX produced 237bhp another was my father-in law's STI3 which produced 282bhp with a backbox and on unleaded http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif. I have also witnessed a MY00 (just covered 1,000mile) at a GTI-R RR day produce 217Bhp and Harj's 305bhp UNICHIP'ed WRX http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif. The point I am trying to make is that I have always found PS rollers to be spot on and find it hard to believe that on such an important day they would become inaccurate. So if it was not the rollers there are only 2 variables left; the weather & the cars.

Most people seemed to except the fact that the weather was effecting figures http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif.
There is of course the chance that the cars that produced low figures may not have been set-up correctly, you must agree that this is a possibility?

Rich and Dirk really know their stuff whether it is Handling, MOTEC's or UNICHIP's (as Harj's 50mins @ Donnington showed).

I like Harj would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone.

Just my 2penny

Iain http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by iainlit (edited 16 May 2000).]

Mark.A
16th May 2000, 18:51
Shaun/Harj,

Can't make the 27th, otherwise I would have been down for a run (maybe http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif).

The discussion has never been about my ability, or lack of, to map my car. It's about logical results from a RR run. The results from Hodges, and my car were not logical, and I stand by that.

It's also interesting to note, that it seemed to be the tuned cars that suffered most, and not the standard cars. Tuned cars tend to run leaner, and with certainly more boost than standard. This in turn makes them run far hotter intake, EG, and engine temps than stock cars, which is why I feel so strongly that the "top fan" is inadequate, and the load on the rollers too high. Both of which will make temps soar.

The Unichip is good VFM, but is less so when you take into account sorting boost control. The costs listed for my mod's were at retail (Ian asked me to price it that way) but they actually cost me about 1/2 the listed figure.

I'm not knocking the Unichip, or PS's ability to map, tune cars, or safely use the rollers. My comments were, and are directed at the rollers. These are software driven, and the load applied is part of that.

As for beating my figures, Shaun's car won't, but Harj's may well. I certainly hope so, because my figures were rubbish, but I hope to see you both at the Pod next time I can make it. Then we'll see. I may have to get Stef to drive though, because my driving is worse than my mapping http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/tongue.gif.

Good luck on the 27th, you Unichip groupies are going to need it http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif.

Mark.

Bob
16th May 2000, 19:18
What a waste of money these tuning parts are. Do the insurance companies know that If we put performance parts on our cars we lower the BHP. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gifThe cars that went to PS were some of the top Imprezaís and Evoís around. An extra 18 BHP from the top Sti only 18 bhp even superchip will get you 40ish BHP and about 25ish BHP from the UK models most of the other tuned cars never even got to STD figs. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/eek.gif We should all dump our performance extras and purchase a BMP exhaust which will give us an extra 40-50 BHP no Impreza can compete with that. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Is it worth spending all this money for parts that give us next to nothing.
At it again Bob

iwatkins
16th May 2000, 20:23
Bob,

I know you are having a stir http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif but you make a valid point.

It is the old rule of diminishing returns. Very easy to get another 40bhp out of a turbo car quite cheaply. It then gets more expensive suddenly and the gains get smaller (in raw output figures).

For example, a 400 pounds exhaust system may only give 15 bhp max power increase, but increase the torque or flatten the peak over a wider rev. range etc. Even a nicer exhaust note may be worth a proportion of the cost. All depends on what you want from your modifications.

However, what the VFM day doesn't take into account is the driveability of the car after modifications. For instance, a 240bhp Scooby may be much nicer/easier to drive quickly on the roads than a "400bhp sorted everything turbo nutter mobile" (TM). The latter may be super trick and super powerful, but an absolute pig below 4000rpm and have no where to put your shopping. All down to usability.

Well in my book anyway http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers

Ian

Bob
16th May 2000, 21:32
iwatkins/
All of my stiring has a very valid point. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif
You say it is very easy to get another 40 BHP out of a turbo car. We had some of the top turbo cars at PS and not one of them had an extra 40 bhp. Link induction and exhaust package was only good for 18 bhp. I consider Marks car to be one of the most powerful cars around after all it must have a few grands worth of extras. But if I said to you give me two grand and I will get you 18 BHP I think you would laugh at me. Or better still give me a few grand and I will lower your BHP. This is what seems to be happening.
Bob

iwatkins
16th May 2000, 23:24
Bob,

I've spent just over a grand and got more than 40bhp (and a much smoother drive too).

Guess it depends where you spend it. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

Cheers

Ian

Jonathan
16th May 2000, 23:26
Reading this thread is great reading.

The thing is as with PE these guys have a vested interest if they are dealing with Unichip. I organised the first PE before any involvement in Scoobies, but now as they remap as well i think we need an totally independent rolling road. Both PS and PE dont fit the bill who does ?.

I could raise the same points as Shawn and what I hear is PE is more accurate than PS, but as Shawn seems close to the actions at PS he will disagree,

Who's independent from Scooby tuning ?

Jonathan

iwatkins
16th May 2000, 23:44
Jonathan,

I'm independent of Scooby tuning....

Because I'm into Toyota tuning. I was independent of all tuners at one point, but I now go to PS as a) they are top blokes, b) they know their stuff, c) have the most accurate rollers I've been too and d) do not bullsh*t.

I have to admit to being non independent when it comes to PS and the Unichip. I rate them both and will not be going anywhere else (unless I win the lottery and the MoTeC gets ordered, then I'll still be at PS as they are the only guys outside MoTeC trusted to fit them).

I'm a git for testing stuff and trying things out. If I don't like it, you'll know about it. Conversely, if I do like something and it works I'll sing its praises. Human nature...

I spend a lot of time at PS and see a lot of different cars on the rollers (not just turbos, but NA hot hatches etc. etc.). In my mind, I am happy that the rollers/computers/operators give consistant and fair results that as far as I am concerned are very close to reality.

But hey, I'm biased.....

Cheers

Ian

Shaun
17th May 2000, 08:26
Ian...

Your not biased, your a goggled eyed, key-board (or is that doughnut) pushing, swamp donkey.........

RicieB Is a billy joel look alike...

Dirk is a human GOLF CLUB!!!!!!

Scatman

[This message has been edited by Shaun (edited 17 May 2000).]

MorayMackenzie
17th May 2000, 09:06
Jonathon,

If PS are biased, how come the best scooby of the day was Mark's independent self-mapped Possum Linked car? I don't think PS had anything to do with the NO2 GTIR that seemed to be the most powerful car of the day either.

Oh, and why didn't my car automatically make the "346bhp" it made on David Power's rollers when it had his phase one fitted (RestInPieces! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif ).

My car ran low figures because the inlet temperature compensation cut in at 50degC and got worse at 60degC. Water injection is next... as soon as ERL get around to delivering the order... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/frown.gif

Incidently, I agree that the fans can't replace the cold air flow found on the road, but I am fairly sure that PS's twin fan/water spraying arrangement is at least as effective as PE's single fan, bonnet closed strategy. PS's rollers will put more load on the car, so more heat is generated. On the other hand, my car required 3 remaps before I had the Phase One removed because it detted on PS's rollers, so PE's rollers simply didn't put enough load on IMHO. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Moray

Stef
17th May 2000, 12:05
Being probably the only person here who's car has run on FOUR different rolling roads, I think I can shed a brighter light.
PE gives my car 267bhp & 235lb/ft.
Superchips gives 248bhp & 248lb/ft.
PS gives it 226bhp & 214lb/ft.
PTS gave it 236bhp & 235lb/ft.
Of the four sets of figures, I have the greatest faith in the PTS ones.
They were all similar conditions bar the PS run, which was very hot.
PS are the only ones running a fan direct into the i/c, PTS were the only ones running a fan direct onto the turbo. Both of these therefore run with the bonnets open.
There is no question that the PS set-up is the most 'spectator friendly'.
The PTS computer is in a litte room, and the software/print-outs look dated, though I don't mind if they're the most accurate.
I will be arranging a local dyno day at PTS once they have been cleared of any blame for my cars demise. Even if they're not, I don't suppose it affects dyno runs (much cheaper ones though of course! http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif ).
The cost per car at PTS will be £20.
They are Superchips agents, but as SC cars are few and far between, they have little to gain. I will keep you all informed, but will wait a while after the next PS day.

Stef.

Bob
17th May 2000, 17:34
Stef/
Problems with your car, sorry to hear that, but pray tell us more.
Bob

Jonathan
17th May 2000, 20:09
Moray

I'm not accusing PS of anything all could be 100% and PE 100% wrong.

What I am saying is whilst a Rolling Road is used and the company (any company) sell ECU's, Exhausts etc for that car then people are always going to be concerned with the figures. ex Harj car with Unichip 305bhp a competitors products Link 250. I'm not implying anything, but Independence is needed.

Rolling Roads use software and any software can be wrong, correction factors put in etc. Wheel Base lengths etc.

I would say someone like AMD who only do Golfs etc, but their Rollers have torque figures 30% higher than PE's.

One point I would say with PE is that when we tested some other makes the numbers were pretty close to manufacturers.

If PE's rollers are out by the margin stated elsewehere is everyone in agreement that a std STI V produces 250bhp and 225lbft. So only 35bhp and 10lbft more than a std UK car. Looks like a PP will stuff an STI on torque ?.

So I'm gald that all my P1 is getting over my MY00 is 10 lbft !!

ex People state 10% out for PE yet my std STI tested 275 and 252lbft. So now deduct 10%.


Jonathan

Anders
17th May 2000, 20:24
Iam looking forward to my link, currently the car is running a standard 22B chip at 1 bar

My car is very driveable now the cam timing has been changed to Prodrive settings http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Before that it was a bit laggy which was exacerbated by a new VF22 turbo

MorayMackenzie
20th May 2000, 16:32
Hi Anders, (Whose email keeps bouncing),

Ok, I'm curious, what can you tell me about the prodrive cam timing change... mail me off-line if you prefer... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/smile.gif

Moray

Firefox
20th May 2000, 18:04
Moray...

Still trying to get as much info off people as possible..

Why dont you try things for yourself...

I'm sure PS have a few tricks.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

J.

MorayMackenzie
21st May 2000, 12:00
Hi J,

I've heard you have a front mounted .... oh well, what's the point. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

I do try things for myself... but if someone else extols (sp) the virtues of something I haven't heard much about, I like to find out a little more about it. It's cheaper than just buying the kit/doing the work and finding out the expensive, hard way... http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/wink.gif

BTW: Are you going to be visiting PS on the 27th?

Moray

Anders
21st May 2000, 15:45
Warren Heath the engine builder did my cam timing.

Now very strong low down, also very thirsty!

He takes the engine out to do it properly.

Bob Rawle
24th May 2000, 13:55
At the risk of prolonging this a couple of comments.

If a rolling road system is used correctly it will/should always correct figures "on the day" to NTP (Normal temperature and pressure) which takes out the varables of atmospheric pressure and temperature (ambient) however a car will perform less well under hotter conditions so will produce less any way. A previous car of mine (Vauxhall 4x4 turbo) would regularily lose 45 bhp of power from run 1 to run 4 on the rollers (approx 10 mins between runs.

Stefs car has produced reasonably consistent torque figures throughout, the power figures are more variable. This indicates that the method used has an effect more at higher revs.

Different rolling road operators have differing methods dependant on their equipment and its degree of automation, some are more sympathetic to each car type's engine characteristic's and wheel base sensitivity. An all wheel drive car needs a lot more care when first putting on the rollers as very small differences in wheel base setting can make very big differences, the Impreza in particular. Different load impedances will certainly produce different numbers from the same car. Look at the way a car produces boot in each gear on the road.

Davids STi 5 suffered because in adjusting his fuel map he pushed the afr into the wrong places. Very small changes in fueling make huge differences to power. He will be back I'm sure.

A rolling road will never produce an absolute value for power and torque, it is at best a comparitor. For example my car was run at PE last year, it was fitted with the factory ecu and PE phase 1, it produced 301 bhp and 275 ft lbs torque, as standard it had been rolling roaded at 256 bhp and 229 lb ft (which is coincidentally exact factory spec). It was driven off the rollers and another Impreza was tested, in the meantime I removed the factory ecu and plugged in my Link, the car was then next up and put back on the rollers within 30 mins. It produced 308 bhp and 302 ft lbs of torque. Why mention this ? Well the main points are that the car was run almost "back to back", roller positions etc were exactly the same and so were conditions of temperature and pressure. So the improvement was real and believable in respect to the how much more.

So my advice on all this is ...

You cannot "believe" that any one rolling road is giving the "true" figure of the car.

Engine dyno figures are the most accurate as the conditions are the most controled but the conditions must always be stated when quoting the figures.

A rolling road is an excellent comparitor but you MUST always do a before and after if checking up on improvements, different days will always produce differing results.

Air flow into the engine bay is crucial to a cars performance on the rollers, different methods again produce different results, its important to get good air velocity through the intercooler to get best cooling. Spraying water onto an intercooler can reduce its efficiency if the water restricts the airflow, it should be a very fine mist as evapouration actually does most of the cooling.

Bob, Did you make notes of your intercooler air temperature at the start and end of your run ? This will provide a very good reference point, on the PE rollers they always run the car three times and record the third run, run one to settle and adjust the car on the rollers, run 2 to check that the load impedance is correct and run three is the recordeded power run. In summer my intercooler air temp was 32 deg at start of third run and rose to 74 deg max during the run.
Bob and I have our thermocouples positioned in the same place and so the comparison will be valid. (I should say peak boost 1.5 bar held 1.3

A day such as this is as much about "doing it" as getting the biggest numbers, meeting up at whichever rolling road is a good chance to look at other cars and chat about our common enthusiasm.

Lets not all get into PS is right and everyone else is wrong. This thread should be a good opportunity to discuss and explain what how and why these differences occur ... which is conjucive to the objectives of the 22b BBS.

Missed the day cos I was on hols and will miss the 27th cos I will be "working" but look forward to my own visit at some point and the numbers my car produces "on the day"

Bob

Stef
24th May 2000, 14:04
Excellent Bob, well explained.
I agree with all you have said, but I was under the impression that the PS rollers had this 'correctional' ability?

Stef.

Bob Rawle
24th May 2000, 18:03
Thanks Stef, yes the PS rollers do have the correction ability, as long as the wet and dry bulb values plus the atmospheric pressure of the day is either fed in or sensed the computer will correct if it is capable, the printouts will show the correction otherwise its back to the calculator. I believe that on the day PS correction was probably upwards ?

Bob